Paph. Pollination

[gixrj18]

Alright, what is the trick to pollinating a Paph.? I have disected a flower and tracked it to the back side of that inner pad. Do you just rub the pollen on the pad or is that little "T" on the back a point of insertion? Because it didn't seem to want to open.

[gixrj18]

Nevermind, I think I got it!

[origamirn]

Hi
So what was the secret to pollinating a paph? Did it work for you?

[gixrj18]

Yes, it worked! You have to rub the pollinia on the back-side of the little pad, directly behind where you pull the pollinia from. You just about have to break the "jaw", so to speak, of the flower in order to get in there with a pair of tweezers.

[Florida_guy_26]

I have not pollinated my blooming paph right now, but I want to. I got it ready in case I do pollinate it but using some tweezers and gently pried the stigma up above the lip. In paphiopedilum, the pollinia are very small and consolidated so they do not take up any more space than needed and the stigma is hidden behind the lip so you must be gentle. I do not feel like removing the lip is suitable for pollination and I know this is just a theory, but I think that damaging a flower in any way other than having a peloric flower in nature might genetically alter any offspring, so I do not remove any parts of any orchid flower.
I read that using both pollen masses and pushing them on both sides of the stigma might increase the amount of fertilized ovaries, but I would imagine that using just 1 pollen mass in the middle of the stigma should be fine. I think just prying the stigma up and forward so it sits above the lip is also more than suitable to pollinate the flower as long as you are careful. The pollen masses are found on either side of the column behind the flat stigmatic shield and the stigma itself is positioned down below the column on a thin stalk and under the folds in the lip.
Use something to gently pry up the stigma, making sure the lip is not removed unless absolutely necessary, and the using a toothpick, or tweezers or a pencil, you can scoop the pollen mass away from the column as long as you gently remove it. Then all you do is take the tip of the instrument you are using, bring it back to the front/center reservoir of the lip, and gently pull up until the pollen/instrument is pressed against the back end of the stigma and gently slide forward until the pollen masses stick. There is no way to tell in paphiopedilum if pollination is successful until months after pollination.
The bloom spike/stem should be alive, if not, your attempt was not successful, but you can keep trying. Good resources can be found on the net about it by searching paphiopedilum pollination on google. I hope this information helps you all.

[monicaorchidlover]

It's way easier to simply take the pouch right off and then you can access that "T" you were talking about. I smear the pollen goo on that T and it has worked for me numerous times.

Now if anyone could tell me how to make an Oncidium or Dendrobium to allow pollination...I've tried so many times (I understand the "how to" part). After the stigmatic surface "closes up" around the pollen ... everything looks good for a few days but then the pedicel/ovary crashes and falls off.

Thanks for any help you can be out there!
Monica

[Florida_guy_26]

You may be right that it is easier to remove the labellum, but I have access to the stigmatic surface now and still have the labellum on my slipper orchid without having to butcher the flower or do any major "hacking" to pollinate it. Why destroy something just to get seeds? Why not enjoy the flower for a while and then decide if its worth it to mutilate the flower after it has been on for a week? The facts are that even waiting 7 - 10 days does not decrease the amount of viable seeds produced by more than 15% and when you flask, who can bring more than 1000 seeds to adulthood anyway? I think it is a waste to do it your way monica, but thats just me.

The other thing, it means that the resultant offspring would be sterile or incompatible in nature so instead of wasting time bringing doomed progeny into the world, nature has made a fail safe. There are chemicals in the pollinia of the orchid you are trying to self pollinate and this is what causes premature aborting of the ovary. Unless you want to try looking up the right combination of chemicals to inject into the ovary so you can do self pollination, a good idea is to try using pollen from different dendrobiums or oncidiums and cross pollinate as self pollination is not accepted by these flowers. Maybe if you looked things up once in while, and read about orchids, or even plants in general, you would understand why your orchids do not want to waste energy on useless seeds. Try doing some research instead of bashing and abusing others ideas and intellect and try working on your own.

[Duane McDowell]

Originally Posted by Florida_guy_26

I have not pollinated my blooming paph right now, but I want to. I got it ready in case I do pollinate it but using some tweezers and gently pried the stigma up above the lip. In paphiopedilum, the pollinia are very small and consolidated so they do not take up any more space than needed and the stigma is hidden behind the lip so you must be gentle. I do not feel like removing the lip is suitable for pollination and I know this is just a theory, but I think that damaging a flower in any way other than having a peloric flower in nature might genetically alter any offspring, so I do not remove any parts of any orchid flower.
I read that using both pollen masses and pushing them on both sides of the stigma might increase the amount of fertilized ovaries, but I would imagine that using just 1 pollen mass in the middle of the stigma should be fine. I think just prying the stigma up and forward so it sits above the lip is also more than suitable to pollinate the flower as long as you are careful. The pollen masses are found on either side of the column behind the flat stigmatic shield and the stigma itself is positioned down below the column on a thin stalk and under the folds in the lip.
Use something to gently pry up the stigma, making sure the lip is not removed unless absolutely necessary, and the using a toothpick, or tweezers or a pencil, you can scoop the pollen mass away from the column as long as you gently remove it. Then all you do is take the tip of the instrument you are using, bring it back to the front/center reservoir of the lip, and gently pull up until the pollen/instrument is pressed against the back end of the stigma and gently slide forward until the pollen masses stick. There is no way to tell in paphiopedilum if pollination is successful until months after pollination.
The bloom spike/stem should be alive, if not, your attempt was not successful, but you can keep trying. Good resources can be found on the net about it by searching paphiopedilum pollination on google. I hope this information helps you all.

I've made many hundreds of Paph. hybrids over the years. I generally just take the pouch off, but I didn't always... One way to avoid doing this (to show the plant, for example) is to open and bend a paper clip. Smear the pollen "goo" onto the paper clip, then gently squeeze the pouch front to back. This will open up the pouch so that you can slip the bent end of the paper clip up behind the stigma and smear the pollen onto the stigma that way. It works fine, and for the hobbyist, it allows the flower to be enjoyed while pollination is taking place. Paphs are different from most orchids in that bloom life is not shortened by pollination.
I still prefer the old-fashioned method of removing the entire pouch, as it allows greater visibility. This is how nearly all commercial Paph. hybrids are made.
As for genetic damage from flower damage, it doesn't seem likely, as flower damage is an externality (think Weismann's mouse tail experiment).

[Florida_guy_26]

That is the best advice I have seen from anyone if someone wants to keep the bloom totally in tact. Like I said, I just popped the stigma up in front of the labellum and I can plainly see what I need to do and nothing is in the way. As it stands now, I could pollinate the flower just fine the way I positioned the stigma and the labellum and the plant still looks fine. I also have pictures I took of it with the stigma up in front of the sides of the labellum. I did read that paphiopedilum will stay in bloom for a little while after pollination, but they do wilt in a normal fashion after a week or two from the day it was pollinated. I was hoping to keep the bloom in tact and pollinate it in a week so the bloom still stays for at least 2 weeks for me and my friends to enjoy. I know that my mind may be crazy and I may be so far off, but the way I think about things in my mind as far as removing anything from a plant or flower before pollination is that there are hormones going through all tissues of the plant and each cell talks to other cells in the plant. I would be nervous to damage or mutilate a flower as there are cytokinins and auxins all through the plant as well as other hormones, sugars and chlorophyl along with micro and macro nutrients interacting with every cell. When some piece gets taken away, the plant has to send a message to every cell that there is damage and it must be repaired or callused. When there is tissue repair, hormone levels as well as plant cells differentiate and I just wonder if that may or may not interfere with the genetic code in the ovary since it is still part of the plant. I just wonder but like i said, I may be crazy for stating that and I do not want to argue, but that is another reason I do not pollinate damaged flowers or plants. Just my opinion though so take it with a grain of salt.

[Duane McDowell]

Originally Posted by Florida_guy_26

That is the best advice I have seen from anyone if someone wants to keep the bloom totally in tact. Like I said, I just popped the stigma up in front of the labellum and I can plainly see what I need to do and nothing is in the way. As it stands now, I could pollinate the flower just fine the way I positioned the stigma and the labellum and the plant still looks fine. I also have pictures I took of it with the stigma up in front of the sides of the labellum. I did read that paphiopedilum will stay in bloom for a little while after pollination, but they do wilt in a normal fashion after a week or two from the day it was pollinated. I was hoping to keep the bloom in tact and pollinate it in a week so the bloom still stays for at least 2 weeks for me and my friends to enjoy. I know that my mind may be crazy and I may be so far off, but the way I think about things in my mind as far as removing anything from a plant or flower before pollination is that there are hormones going through all tissues of the plant and each cell talks to other cells in the plant. I would be nervous to damage or mutilate a flower as there are cytokinins and auxins all through the plant as well as other hormones, sugars and chlorophyl along with micro and macro nutrients interacting with every cell. When some piece gets taken away, the plant has to send a message to every cell that there is damage and it must be repaired or callused. When there is tissue repair, hormone levels as well as plant cells differentiate and I just wonder if that may or may not interfere with the genetic code in the ovary since it is still part of the plant. I just wonder but like i said, I may be crazy for stating that and I do not want to argue, but that is another reason I do not pollinate damaged flowers or plants. Just my opinion though so take it with a grain of salt.

I think it's very wise to not pollinate a flower which is deformed or to pollinate a plant which is not growing well. In the case of a deformed flower, I wouldn't use the pollen, either. A plant that isn't growing optimally could lead to poor nutrition to the fruit. A deformed flower may produce genetically inferior pollen or ova. Either way, the chance of getting good results are reduced. A strong healthy plant is, I believe, imperative to getting good seed production.
Many paphs are somewhat reluctant to breed until they are big, strong multi-growth plants. It can be disheartening to buy a plant for breeding and have pod after pod drop off...
The only concern I would have with having the stigma outside of the labellum is that the labellum could possibly rub some of the pollen off the back of the stigma. Additionally, by popping the stigma forward, you could potentially cause slight mechanical damage to the stigma, which could affect fertility, or to the labellum, which could affect flower longevity. Using a hooked applicator (bent paper clip) can get around both of these. I had blooms last for a month or more after pollination using this method when I was with Inverness Greenery. It was helpful when we wanted to show plants but didn't want to slow down our breeding!