Trying to settle a little disagreement between me and my mum!

[Ashleigh's Orchids]

Ok so here is our little 'disagreement'

My mum was trying to tell me today that when you pollinate an orchid and it works successfully and it produces the green pod/seeds, you can just plant the seeds in bark mix and coarse peat and the orchid will grow that way! She was then going on and on that seeds dont need flasking and you shouldnt pay some-one to flask seeds for you as they are just after money because you can just plant them in bark and coarse peat! -- This all comes from a women who owns no orchids herself!!

So to settle the disagreement, my question to you is - can you plant seeds directly into bark and peat??

[ronaldhanko]

You can, but you probably won't get much of any germination or growth. Before the technique of sterile flasking was discovered, orchidists sowed the seed on top of the medium of other plants (usually osmunda fiber). They would sometimes get a few plants that way but collecting remained the main source of plants and sowing the seed on the medium was a pretty iffy technique. I think you've got one up on your mom, since no one interested in sowing seed would do it the old way today. Maybe you can get her to take you for lunch.

[Ashleigh's Orchids]

Ok so my mum was sort of right but i was more right! Haha! I like the idea of mum taking me out to lunch, ill definately be talking to her about that one! Thanks for your help ronald

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I'll second what Ronald posted. I've tried the ex-vitro method for Bletilla striata. And like Ronald had said. The seeds germinated. But the amount of plants that will make it to maturity is very low.

Most orchid seeds depend on mycorrhizal fungi to germinate. But this topic can take on a life of its own, so I'll just leave you with this.

And yes...your mom owes you lunch, but make it a good one, because technically you were both right. It's just this time you were more right like you said.

[Royal]

Just to help nail this one down...

Flasking can give you good germination, up to 90%. In nature it's quite literally one in a million. I'd guess that sowing in bark and peat might give you 0.01% to 0.1% germination. My numbers are just a wild guess, but there is no comparison. Your mum owes you lunch.

[Ashleigh's Orchids]

Brilliant. Thankyou all so much for your help and input into my thread. So gald I was right else I would not have heard the last of it from mum (now she wont hear the last of it from me! LOL) Thanks again guys I really appreciate it.

[stefpix]

0.01 % is still viable if maybe a pod contains 10.000 seeds.
couldn't some molds provide the nutrients of the fungi?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by stefpix

0.01 % is still viable if maybe a pod contains 10.000 seeds...

That's still a very low yield. That number is most likely for germination only. This doesn't account for the germinated protocorms to make it maturity.

...couldn't some molds provide the nutrients of the fungi?

I suspect the answer is a bit more complicated than a simple yes or no.

Here's why:

Technically, not any mold or fungus will germinate orchid seeds.

The fungi in question would have to be known and collectively grouped as "orchid mycorrhizae".

From what I understand, "orchid mycorrhizae" can be different from the species of ectomycorrhizae (fungus found in association with the outside of plant roots) or endomycorrhizae (fungus found in association with the inside of a plant root's cell) that are typically found in association with the roots of other plants.

For instance, one particular genus (I believe it would be considered a valid genus name) is Rhizoctonia. A known species of Rhizoctonia to behave as an "orchid mycorrhizae" is Rhizoctonia solani (the taxonomy may have changed, so check if this name is still valid).

However...

Some orchids do not specialize in hosting a specific "orchid mycorrhizae" in their roots, they're more generalists, having the ability to host several different kinds of "orchid mycorrhizae". Although, obviously from what I described there is the flip side where there are species of orchids that specialize in specific species of "orchid mycorrhizae".

With what I've said above...

I'm assuming the seeds of an orchid may be discriminating when it comes to fungal symbiont appropriateness, or they may be generalists within the known group of fungi to be "orchid mycorrhizae".

The purpose of the fungal symbiont is that the fungus provides nutrition for the orchid embryo while protecting it through biochemical means from other potentially harmful fungus or molds as well as harmful bacteria.

But...

It's not clear as to what the fungus gains out of infecting the orchid seeds. I'm guessing, the fungus gains protection by breaking through the orchid seed's seed coat (testa), idk.

Hope this wasn't too over any one's head. I know it quite technical.

If you'd like to know more. I encourage people to go on Google Scholar and read some articles in peer reviewed scientific journals on the subject.

I find the articles to be very informative and fascinating. (God, I sound like Spock from Star Trek. Ughh. And I'm not even a Trekkie or a Trekker, or whatever people call them now.)

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Mycorrhizae - translation:

myco = fungus

rhizae = root

mycorrhizae = "fungus root"

[camille1585]

I didn't find it too technical at all! Then again, maybe that's because I have spent the last 3 weeks reading scientific articles all day long.
It's interesting that Rhizoctonia solani is a mycorrhizal fungus, because in most crops this fungus is considered to be a huge huge problem. It's responsable for the 'damping off' of seedlings, killing them in a few days, and also a few other diseases that affect older seedlings, notably in the Brassicaceae.

As for the name... this one has 2 depending on how it is reproducing (because scientists can't agree on anything). The asexual stage is Rhizoctonia solani. But in the sexual stage the fungus goes over into the other name classification, becoming Thanatephorus cucumeris! This was a huge source of confusion during lab practicals last year. With new biochemical ID methods they will probably decide on just one name. Someday.

I'm also curious how you are accessing the journals? The only reason I have access (even on Google Scholar) is because I'm plugged in on my University's network, and they have subscriptions to many many journals.

As to the benefits that the mychorrizal fungi get from associating with plant roots, they normally get carbohydrates produced in photosynthesis in the form of gluose and fructose, but in the case of orchid seed there is no evidence of any nutrient flow from seedling to fungus. Even in recent articles the authors still admit the lack of knowledge in that field, and in orchid nutrition in the wild in general.