Oncidium x Tolumnia breeding adventures

[Waterdog111]

GH Frog, between you and Dorchid in Colorado, I have gotten my inspiration to try some of this pollination. To try and learn how. I really dont know how fast Ill pick up on it, but you cannt learn by sitting back and dreaming.
Thanks greatly for anything.

[greenhouseFrog]

Originally Posted by Waterdog111

GH Frog, between you and Dorchid in Colorado, I have gotten my inspiration to try some of this pollination. To try and learn how. I really dont know how fast Ill pick up on it, but you cannt learn by sitting back and dreaming.
Thanks greatly for anything.

Dorchid is one smooth operator—I actually need to get in touch with him, but the messaging feature is bugging out!

WD, make some crosses just to get the feeling of manipulating the pollinia and the flower—for years, I’ve done work that requires very fine motor control in the hands & digits and I found that the pollination in this case was still challenging, especially when a pollinium wasn’t connected to a stipe! Sure, those crosses might not work(like this Onc. X Tolu. cross), but the process of researching in preparation for a cross, collecting and properly storing the pollinia, waiting for a seed parent to bloom, making the cross, and harvesting the capsules at the appropriate time are still necessary parts of the process that people like us have the ability to get good at without needing lab infrastructure. Everything after that can be subbed out to people with the appropriate knowledge, techniques, and equipment until we can develop our own knowledge, techniques, and equipment(or access thereto)—the information has never been more available!

[Waterdog111]

on that motor control, that will probably be my first challenge, well no it will be. At 75 years that could be my first hurtle. Any way Im not going to let that stop me.

[tmoney]

is Dorchid a dude? i always thought she was a she??

anyways, yeah, while the manipulation of pollinia and the pollination process can be tedious, that is probly the easiest part of the process (at least for us). takes less than a minute, and the targets are pretty clear.

this thread is gold because the org post is focused on the genetics in the background, and that's where the bear shit in the buckwheat. like ray mentioned, we have found the most frustrating thing is when we wait 8 months or more with what looks like a nice, plump capsule, only to find it is absolutely empty. like nearly every cap on phal little sister, but we keep trying (stupidly). and now we will wait another 3-5 (or more) years to see the results of the cross...more than likely the results will be underwhelming, or far from the original intent of the cross. not to mention that we cant grow 500 plants and select the best ones.

hell, our best flask after 3 years of work is only 50 plants!! so then, do you continue and try to do F1 crosses, or do you just give up and move on to something else??!!

a few people told us a couple years ago that we were wasting our time with breeding orchids. perhaps they are right. but this is one of those things that so few people ever try to do, and when you get the impulse (from the greater consciousness or wherever) then, imho, it is worth pursuing. we will never be the next Fred Clarke, lets be clear. but breeding orchids makes us part of the plant/human nexus, and is a greater good than fame or fortune (you certainly won't get rich from this, hahahahah!!!). its completely nonsensical to try and make orchid hybrids, so if you get the urge to try it then i think it is absolutely with the time and effort....

[Waterdog111]

I just want to experience the feelings as I got breeding synodontis petrocola(kookoo catfish) and raising up the thousand or so babies to a good size. Its all great accomplishing something like that.

[Ray]

I have made a few crosses over the years.

My first was a Paph. I harvested the capsules (that’s what it really is, not a “pod”, despite the fact that that’s the commonly used term) 18 months after pollination. Sent it off to a good lab, but they were only able to get minimal germination from it. As the protocorms expanded, they kept having issues, so tried about a dozen “tweaks” to the nutrient formula. About 2 years in, they told me they were the weirdest, most deformed plants they had ever seen, and was I OK destroying them.

I’ve had cattleya capsules grown beautifully, only to be eaten by mice.

My one, truly successful cross, Warczatorea Heaven’s Bank ((W. amazonica x marginata = River’s Edge) x Pesc.wallisii) ended up giving me 50 daughter flasks x 20-25 plants each. They had an absolutely beautiful scent, but were ugly as sin. I found only one plant that was aesthetically pleasing, and it was grown by someone who gave it back to me. I have since given it away, too.

[greenhouseFrog]

Originally Posted by tmoney

is Dorchid a dude? i always thought she was a she??

anyways, yeah, while the manipulation of pollinia and the pollination process can be tedious, that is probly the easiest part of the process (at least for us). takes less than a minute, and the targets are pretty clear.

this thread is gold because the org post is focused on the genetics in the background, and that's where the bear shit in the buckwheat. like ray mentioned, we have found the most frustrating thing is when we wait 8 months or more with what looks like a nice, plump capsule, only to find it is absolutely empty. like nearly every cap on phal little sister, but we keep trying (stupidly). and now we will wait another 3-5 (or more) years to see the results of the cross...more than likely the results will be underwhelming, or far from the original intent of the cross. not to mention that we cant grow 500 plants and select the best ones.

hell, our best flask after 3 years of work is only 50 plants!! so then, do you continue and try to do F1 crosses, or do you just give up and move on to something else??!!

a few people told us a couple years ago that we were wasting our time with breeding orchids. perhaps they are right. but this is one of those things that so few people ever try to do, and when you get the impulse (from the greater consciousness or wherever) then, imho, it is worth pursuing. we will never be the next Fred Clarke, lets be clear. but breeding orchids makes us part of the plant/human nexus, and is a greater good than fame or fortune (you certainly won't get rich from this, hahahahah!!!). its completely nonsensical to try and make orchid hybrids, so if you get the urge to try it then i think it is absolutely with the time and effort....

Thanks for joining the conversation, tmoney! If I’m being honest, I didn’t know at first, so I wrote “they”—then I saw the male symbol in the info field on one of Dorchid’s posts, and I assumed that was correct! Dorchid, if you read this(and even if you don’t), I apologize if I’m still getting it wrong! Y’know, for us frogs, gender is more of a fluid thing dependent upon on how polluted our environments are—that’s partly why I moved from the city to the Everglades!

In past attempts, the pollination process was easy(bigger flowers) but this time, the difficulty was in getting the pollinium of the Oncidiums into/onto the stigmatic surface of the Tolumnias—like +90% of my Tolumnias are mounted in trees and it was a challenge to get on target with the wind while in an uncomfortable position! That being said, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say that pollination is the easy part compared to what’s to come—laugh now, cry later

I did a little more digging through some other bear scat and will share a “hypothesis” in another post in regard to similarities between the successful crosses of this kind(Onc. X Tolu. and vice-versa)—nothing quantitative, but I did notice some patterns in the lineages! Thankfully(?), life has mentally prepared me for failure, but I’ve learned to rebound rather quickly —“if you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough!” At the same time, having a good attitude doesn’t discount the time and resources seemingly wasted by yourself, Ray, and the countless others, especially when it’s for business as opposed to pleasure—I imagine that there’s still pressure even at a large commercial scale if you’re looking for particular traits, and that’s in spite of an abundance of resources! Can I ask you this(if you’re willing to share)about your Phal. Little Sister: are the parents line-bred or are they offspring of wild parents and do you think that could have any impact on your crosses? Also, are you looking for the presence of seed embryos before plating up or do you just go for it?

Your sentiments echo my own in that this is something out of the ordinary that many folks out there aren’t willing to undertake, but having the motivation, information, and resources(for now) certainly makes the task seem less daunting—I’m sure there’ll be obstacles to overcome in the future, but I’ll jump off that bridge when I get there and take notes! I certainly admire and aspire to experience even an iota of Fred’s success in breeding, but I’m with you in believing that setting so high a standard would be counterproductive, if not entirely discouraging. Even with that being said, a man can dream, right?

---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ray

My one, truly successful cross, Warczatorea Heaven’s Bank ((W. amazonica x marginata = River’s Edge) x Pesc.wallisii) ended up giving me 50 daughter flasks x 20-25 plants each. They had an absolutely beautiful scent, but were ugly as sin. I found only one plant that was aesthetically pleasing, and it was grown by someone who gave it back to me. I have since given it away, too.

You wouldn’t happen to know where that plant is after a decade or two now, would ya, Ray?

[Dorchid]

Nothing is a waste of time if you enjoy doing it. The process is often rewarding in itself but success can be even more so. As such, set yourself up for success through education, networking and gumption. Make friends who are willing to share capsules or seed with you; trade pollen. If you have a certain cross that just won’t take, move on. Develop a plan of where you want to go, don’t just chuck pollen…you may need to at first to get your footing but it’s good to have a goal in what you’re doing…keep it narrow. My threads have some pretty good info in them and tube has some good info if you sort through the noise. Everyone has their own reason for whatever they do, don’t let others tell you what life is worth. Also, I can guarantee nobody is going to be the next Fred Clarke but the just might be the next tmoney.

2.5 yo



Σ

[greenhouseFrog]

Originally Posted by Dorchid

Nothing is a waste of time if you enjoy doing it. The process is often rewarding in itself but success can be even more so. As such, set yourself up for success through education, networking and gumption. Make friends who are willing to share capsules or seed with you; trade pollen. If you have a certain cross that just won’t take, move on. Develop a plan of where you want to go, don’t just chuck pollen…you may need to at first to get your footing but it’s good to have a goal in what you’re doing…keep it narrow. My threads have some pretty good info in them and tube has some good info if you sort through the noise. Everyone has their own reason for whatever they do, don’t let others tell you what life is worth. Also, I can guarantee nobody is going to be the next Fred Clarke but the just might be the next tmoney.

Speak of the devil! Thank you for your input, Dorchid—I consider myself still in the chucking pollen phase, but I’m very much on the same page with you in regard to not spending much time on crosses that don’t take—not seeing much progress, so I don’t see myself spending much more time on these Onc. X Tolu. crosses when I have other, less difficult crosses that could be made! There is a bunch of noise when it comes to the info, but the cream rises to the top after a while—thank you again for your contributions here on OB, and I WILL be looking through your posts! And if I’m not mistaken, 2.5 years is blinding speed—very well done!

I don’t think there will EVER be another tmoney, though

[Dorchid]

Originally Posted by greenhouseFrog

I don’t think there will EVER be another tmoney, though

That’s exactly my point.