Vanda breeding: Need some guidance

[alecStewart1]

Hey gang!

So even though I've been growing orchids for not even a year yet and having a relatively small collection, I've become more and more curious about breeding and hybridization, specifically more about Vandas.

I know some people will probably roll their eyes once they read this, but I think the idea of mixing in the hardiness and varieties of mutations that Neofinetia/Vanda falcata can have in with other Vandas is overall a great idea. I know it's probably considered to be overdone, but I see a lot of value in it.

However I know there's many caveats to this. For one, things like variegation, sumi, leave size and shape mutations that Neo. falcata varieties present are likely not things that can be transferred to offspring.

An example being that, at least from what I've read so far, Fugaku is one of the only varieties in which variegation can be transferred down to offspring.

Even still, having something like a dark purple flowered Vanda with variegation is definitely a pipe dream at best, unless of course you're a gene altering wizard with a lab that costs the same as the average GDP of some tiny country in Asia.

So, from my perspective, if I were to create some cross between a Neo. falcata and some other Vanda or plant of another genus, the things that would matter to me, in no particular order, are:

• Flower color
• Flower shape/form
• Flower fragrance
• Mature flower average count per spike
• Mature plant size
• Nectar spur length
• Nectar spur count

To actually ask a question here, let's give an example of something that sounds interesting but I have no idea how it might turn out, going for flower form and color.

Some Vanda species/hybrids have very nice looking "lips" on them that compliment the rest of the flower, giving the flowers a more distinct look that isn't just a star-like shape. Neo. falcata 'Soubiryu' (双尾龍, it means 'double-beared dragon') is a variety that has both a double lip and double spur.

In this case, is it worth crossing a distinct lipped Vanda with a unique flower type Neo like 'Soubiryu'?
More broadly, is it even worth mixing in distinctive flower variety Neos with Vandas, in hope of creating a different looking flower Vanda hybrid, especially considering some hanamono Neos can start getting up there in price, maybe even distinctly lipped Vandas as well?

The reason I ask is that from looking around and seeing Neo and Vanda hybrids, it seems like flower genetics are more likely to get passed on then variegation or leaf mutation.

[Ray]

I love the concept!

I cannot speak to the genetics, but there are two physical objects to overcome:

V. falcata pollen on a large vanda: can the pollen tube penetrate deeply enough for fertilization to occur?

Large vanda pollen on V. falcata: is the pollen tube diameter compatible?

Supposedly, Kelpak treatment of the "mother" plant has shown enhancement of pollen tube development, which might overcome the first issue, but who knows?

[Fairorchids]

You are opening a Pandora's Box here.

I love Vandas (& Vanda intergenerics), so I have looked at them in detail. However, unless you have significant experience and long time records, it is hard to say what will come out of 'experimental' breeding. You might want to get hold of Dr. M. Motes book: Vandas, their Botany, History and Culture. Then, after reading it, see if you can get an appointment with Dr. Motes to learn more.

I can offer you a few general comments:

1. As Ray commented, pollen from small flowered plants might not be able to pollinate large flowered plants (and vice-versa).
2. Any strongly colored V. falcata (red, purple, yellow, etc.), is NOT a true species. It is a hybrid (probably backcrossed to falcata several times). In Japan, if it looks like a falcata, they call it falcata, but DNA studies have shown these plants to be hybrids.
3. The same applies to Vanda coerulea. Plants with strongly reticulated flowers and petals that do not twist 180 degrees, are hybrids. Dr. Motes confirmed this to me several years ago.
4. Finally, I have not seen anything in writing about variegation in orchids. However, in Clivia variegation can only be transferred by the mother plant (never by the pollen). And, whether seeds carries variegation is determined by the individual cell from which the 'egg' originated.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Ray

I love the concept!

I cannot speak to the genetics, but there are two physical objects to overcome:

V. falcata pollen on a large vanda: can the pollen tube penetrate deeply enough for fertilization to occur?

Large vanda pollen on V. falcata: is the pollen tube diameter compatible?

Supposedly, Kelpak treatment of the "mother" plant has shown enhancement of pollen tube development, which might overcome the first issue, but who knows?

Hm, I didn't actually know this was a thing. I guess I need to look up more about the flowers of all the plants I'd want to cross.

Although maybe tissue culture isn't a bad way to go, but that does require a lab and I don't exactly have the space for that.

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

You are opening a Pandora's Box here.

I love Vandas (& Vanda intergenerics), so I have looked at them in detail. However, unless you have significant experience and long time records, it is hard to say what will come out of 'experimental' breeding. You might want to get hold of Dr. M. Motes book: Vandas, their Botany, History and Culture. Then, after reading it, see if you can get an appointment with Dr. Motes to learn more.

I was considering getting one of his books at some point. It doesn't look like it's sold on the website right now, but it is on Amazon.

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

[*]Any strongly colored V. falcata (red, purple, yellow, etc.), is NOT a true species. It is a hybrid (probably backcrossed to falcata several times). In Japan, if it looks like a falcata, they call it falcata, but DNA studies have shown these plants to be hybrids.

Hmm, is that plants like Kibana and Hisui (yellow and green) are a product of naturally occurring back crosses?

I only ask because the Japanese Fukiran Society is very picky about what it considers to be registerable fukiran, and hybrids like Yuubae and Kobai are not considered to be registered varieties, even though their flowers have the same shape as most regular Neo. falcata varieties without color. I have no idea what the Koreans think, but they have a lot of unique varieties as well.

Kibana and Hisui have been around for awhile (at least, I think they have), so I imagine they were at one point found somewhere occurring naturally. I'm not saying you're wrong, if the science shows they're not pure Neo. falcata then, well, they aren't. It still does beg the question of what those varieties were even crossed with originally and then how many times they were back crossed to wind up getting different colored flowers. The culture for those plants has existed for a long time, so maybe this information is something that's been lost to the ages.

[estación seca]

Motes sells the book on his Web site. Many variegations are now induced by treating small plants or mericlone flasks with various choroplast poisons.

[Fairorchids]

RE Fukiran Society, etc.
It is my understanding that the Fukiran Society only recognizes clones that were found in nature.

In Japan, the concept of species vs hybrid is of course recognized by scientists, but not by commercial growers or lay people. This has been confirmed by Dr. Kristen Uthus (New World Orchids). Thus 'Koto', 'Hisui', etc. are plants that came out of either commercial or hobby breeding programs, but eventually were accepted as being fukiran since plant & flowers looked identical - except for color.

Any V. falcata that has stronger colors than 'Shu-Ten-Nou' is suspect.

It is the same issue with V. coerulea in Thailand. Dr. Motes has heard Thai orchid people use the same word for both V. coerulea, and for blue Vanda hybrids. Some of the ostensibly line bred coeruleas have been DNA tested, and they are not true species.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by estación seca

Motes sells the book on his Web site.

Currently I don't see it. I see "The Natural Genus Vanda", but not "Vandas, their Botany, History and Culture".

Originally Posted by estación seca

Many variegations are now induced by treating small plants or mericlone flasks with various choroplast poisons.

Hmm, I don't know how I feel about that. If I really wanted to produce a variegated hybrid, I'd rather see if using a Neo variety that's known to be able to pass down it's variegation through breeding. At the moment, Fugaku is the only one I know of, but I could probably ask around and find more.

---------- Post added at 10:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

.
In Japan, the concept of species vs hybrid is of course recognized by scientists, but not by commercial growers or lay people. This has been confirmed by Dr. Kristen Uthus (New World Orchids). Thus 'Koto', 'Hisui', etc. are plants that came out of either commercial or hobby breeding programs, but eventually were accepted as being fukiran since plant & flowers looked identical - except for color.

Any V. falcata that has stronger colors than 'Shu-Ten-Nou' is suspect.

It is the same issue with V. coerulea in Thailand. Dr. Motes has heard Thai orchid people use the same word for both V. coerulea, and for blue Vanda hybrids. Some of the ostensibly line bred coeruleas have been DNA tested, and they are not true species.

Interesting it. I do see people use 'Shutennou' to breed with other Vandas. Guess I'll learn more once I start digging into all of the information out there.

I assume plants with more than normal sepals or nectar spurs, or mutated leaves are a product of natural mutation rather than mutation from chimerism? Because, when you think about it, what other Vanda genetics would produce twisted leaves or chunky bean leaves?

Take something Satomi from Seed Engei just listed the website and more recently on ebay, Nishidemiyako-Kawari 西出都. "Kawari" means something like "strange/weird little thing". Unless there's something don't to seedlings to make them mutate into some kind of pseudo-beanleaf, Nishidemiyako is known to mutate in several ways naturally.

There is high a chance I'm completely wrong, though.

[Fairorchids]

Be aware that most mutations are recessive. When breeding, unless there is a recessive trait in the same chromosome location in the other parent, the seedlings revert to tipo.

[estación seca]

The older Motes book is out of print. You can find copies second-hand.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

Be aware that most mutations are recessive. When breeding, unless there is a recessive trait in the same chromosome location in the other parent, the seedlings revert to tipo.

Of course, though I'm curious as to how recessive things like flower mutations are.

Take a higher-end hanamono Korean type, Samjiyeon 삼지연 三池淵. This is a cross between Benikaede, a hybrid, and Manjushage, not a hybrid. If multiple nectar spurs is a very recessive trait, is Samjiyeon purely just the luck of the dice roll? If so, are all of the other Korean multiple nectar spurred varieties just completely from luck of the dice roll for every single one?

I imagine the triple spurs of Manjushage is fairly stable, and Manjushage is known to mutate to be an Aojiku, having a pure green stem, and akane/rubiine, red/ruby root tips. I haven't seen both of those mutations at once, but I have seen both variations of Manjushage be sold.