Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Login
User Name
Password   


Registration is FREE. Click to become a member of OrchidBoard community
(You're NOT logged in)

menu menu

Sponsor
Donate Now
and become
Forum Supporter.

Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Many perks!
<...more...>


Sponsor
 

Google


Fauna Top Sites
Register Removal of pollinia from pod parent Members Removal of pollinia from pod parent Removal of pollinia from pod parent Today's PostsRemoval of pollinia from pod parent Removal of pollinia from pod parent Removal of pollinia from pod parent
LOG IN/REGISTER TO CLOSE THIS ADVERTISEMENT
Go Back   Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web ! > >
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-28-2021, 02:23 PM
Jmbaum Jmbaum is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2021
Zone: 10b
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 133
Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Default Removal of pollinia from pod parent

I apologize if this has been covered anywhere, but searches have yielded no explicit answers.

Is it better to leave pollinia attached to pod parent after it has been pollinated?

I’m aware that the flower collapses within a few day of the removal. Both scenarios can and do occur in in-situ, and certainly both yield seed. From those experienced in propitiation, what is your preferred process? Have we seen any comparative studies? I’m not sure if there is more than a singular trigger for the auxin/ethylene signaling for ovule development. Basically is the pollination the trigger, removal of pollinia from pod parent, or both yield higher viable seed?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-31-2021, 10:28 AM
Fairorchids's Avatar
Fairorchids Fairorchids is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Zone: 7a
Location: North Plainfield, NJ
Posts: 2,819
Removal of pollinia from pod parent Male
Default

Most breeders will remove the pollinia prior to pollinating - to avoid the risk of inadvertently producing seed from a self-pollination.

This does not apply to Paphiopedilum, where the pollinia is sitting to the side.
__________________
Kim (Fair Orchids)

Founder of SPCOP (Society to Prevention of Cruelty to Orchid People), with the goal of barring the taxonomists from tinkering with established genera!

I am neither a 'lumper' nor a 'splitter', but I refuse to re-write millions of labels.
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes Jmbaum liked this post
  #3  
Old 05-31-2021, 11:45 AM
Jmbaum Jmbaum is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2021
Zone: 10b
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 133
Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Default

Thanks Kim, that’s what I thought robber common practice. I was thinking that perhaps it may be a good idea to keep the pollinia ph the mother to allow the deposited pollen tubes to extend prior to the flower collapsing. From what I understand about the tube growth is that the time in which it sync with the ovules growth will ensure a better chance of distant crosses producing viable and more of it. I only ran across one study that dealt with the tube growth/ ovule growth, but it stops short of being able to conclude any relationship or definite application for breeding.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-31-2021, 12:12 PM
Fairorchids's Avatar
Fairorchids Fairorchids is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Zone: 7a
Location: North Plainfield, NJ
Posts: 2,819
Removal of pollinia from pod parent Male
Default

While many flowers will show signs of pollinia removal, most do not collapse till they have been pollinated.

The plant 'wants' to spread it's genes (pollen), but it also wants to carry a pod, so it can spread seed too.
__________________
Kim (Fair Orchids)

Founder of SPCOP (Society to Prevention of Cruelty to Orchid People), with the goal of barring the taxonomists from tinkering with established genera!

I am neither a 'lumper' nor a 'splitter', but I refuse to re-write millions of labels.
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes Jmbaum liked this post
  #5  
Old 05-31-2021, 12:42 PM
Jmbaum Jmbaum is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2021
Zone: 10b
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 133
Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Default

Yes, that’s vital to keep front of mind. i do think that should we be able to understand the process more intimately through experience or formal science we can circumvent some of the challenges that are attributed to “just didn’t take” or chromosome count. Create a higher success gradient no matter if the plants are of distant relation or improving yield and therefore diversity of a species. Back to the post though thanks for confirming, and sharing your own experience and practice. I had a plant not take two pollinations in a row and wondering if i could have improved the odds by not removing the pod parent’s pollen or differed it. while I didn’t mind to much the pollen was a bit more precious.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-31-2021, 03:48 PM
Ray's Avatar
Ray Ray is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: May 2005
Member of:AOS
Location: Oak Island NC
Posts: 15,204
Removal of pollinia from pod parent Male
Default

Have you considered reciprocal crosses?

In my limited breeding efforts, I always swapped pollinia, doubling the chances of the cross "taking", and possibly allowing feature combinations I had not been anticipating.

If the goal is simply increasing the likelihood of a germination, consider so experimentation with treating the plant with KelpMax. Studies have shown that it enhances the length and growth rate of pollen tubes.
__________________
Ray Barkalow, Orchid Iconoclast
FIRSTRAYS.COM
Try Kelpak - you won't be sorry!

Last edited by Ray; 05-31-2021 at 03:50 PM..
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes Jmbaum liked this post
  #7  
Old 05-31-2021, 10:47 PM
Jmbaum Jmbaum is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2021
Zone: 10b
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 133
Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Default

Thanks Ray,
I had a particular cross that was more like to work in one direction with the 4N as pod parent. The specifics of that situation aside, I normally would reciprocate the cross if I owned both parents, and they were in flower within the same interval. it is very sound advice, thank you. What I’m particularly interested in is that variables associated with pollination, fertilization, and highest yield of viable embryos.
I agree that anything that improves the health of the pollen parent could be reflected in the vigor of the pollen.

From there I will also be approaching the asymbiotic germination process, which after this long could use a bit of an overhaul. There are several points in process that compromise yield and stall plant metabolism. There has been some successful exploration of aspects, that I’ll fold in. Something closer to semi hydro would be more appropriate by my approximation, increased circulation of both liquid and gaseous nutrients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
Have you considered reciprocal crosses?

In my limited breeding efforts, I always swapped pollinia, doubling the chances of the cross "taking", and possibly allowing feature combinations I had not been anticipating.

If the goal is simply increasing the likelihood of a germination, consider so experimentation with treating the plant with KelpMax. Studies have shown that it enhances the length and growth rate of pollen tubes.


---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------

Ray, are the studies available on your website? I’d be interested to stack the process against another staining protocol for pollen tubes.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-01-2021, 08:46 AM
Ray's Avatar
Ray Ray is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: May 2005
Member of:AOS
Location: Oak Island NC
Posts: 15,204
Removal of pollinia from pod parent Male
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmbaum View Post
Ray, are the studies available on your website? I’d be interested to stack the process against another staining protocol for pollen tubes.
Apparently, the original study was published back in the 60’s and identified the nutrients critical to pollen germination and tube growth.

The manufacturers of KelpMax, noting that it contained “all of the above” as well as other important nutrient components, did experiments - all on food crops - that demonstrated significant increases in fruit production per plant as well as crop production per area.
__________________
Ray Barkalow, Orchid Iconoclast
FIRSTRAYS.COM
Try Kelpak - you won't be sorry!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-01-2021, 09:37 AM
Fairorchids's Avatar
Fairorchids Fairorchids is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Zone: 7a
Location: North Plainfield, NJ
Posts: 2,819
Removal of pollinia from pod parent Male
Default

As to reciprocal crosses: Whether I do them, depends upon what I want from the cross.

If the potential parents are dissimilar, you can expect significant differences between each of the reciprocal crosses. A classic example = Vandachostylis Pinky (Neofinetia falcata x Rhy gigantea)
NF x RG = small plants, starry flowers, low flower count.
RG x NF = mid size plants, fuller flowers & higher flower count.

Currently I am breeding on with (RGxNF), but I wouldn't dream of using (NFxRG).

On the other hand, if I was attempting a cross with two complex Paphiopedilum hybrids, then there is a strong case for doing it both ways.
__________________
Kim (Fair Orchids)

Founder of SPCOP (Society to Prevention of Cruelty to Orchid People), with the goal of barring the taxonomists from tinkering with established genera!

I am neither a 'lumper' nor a 'splitter', but I refuse to re-write millions of labels.
Reply With Quote
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likes
Likes Jmbaum liked this post
  #10  
Old 06-01-2021, 03:18 PM
Jmbaum Jmbaum is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2021
Zone: 10b
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 133
Removal of pollinia from pod parent
Default

The Neofinetia genes are a great case study for the dominance of certain species and population over others. Also interesting how it’s fragrance is sadly very recessive. It will be interesting if these are every mapped, multiply lifetimes of work without more expedient tech.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
parent, pod, pollinia, removal, yield


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seed vs Pollen Parent Fairorchids Propagation 6 07-25-2016 07:06 PM
Why you can not id a phal hybrid dennis Identification Forum 11 11-06-2015 01:00 PM
Capsule vs pollen parent orchidsarefun Propagation 5 05-05-2012 09:54 AM
Pollen removal on seed plant Uechi Propagation 17 09-23-2008 03:44 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:49 AM.

© 2007 OrchidBoard.com
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.37 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Clubs vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.