The common cooling question
 

I swear I've posted this thread THREE times already, BUT IT'S NOT SHOWING UP!:rofl: I will try once more. Let just start with what I'm doing this in, a 72" × 30" closet, with multiple fans, sunblaster led strips, diy tables and shelving, and a fog machine I've almost finished. My goal here is to cool this area anywhere between 10 - 20°, which as alot of you know, is much easier said than done. I've been doing a fair bit of research, and have looked at different means of cooling, with none of them very efficient. What I'm asking is does anyone know if you can cool anything larger than a terrarium without going broke?

What temperatures do you have without cooling? The fog machine may lead to moisture/humidity damage of the walls, ceiling and carpet (if any.)

Temperature is generally around 73° degrees, give or take a degree or two. I don't think I specified enough, the cooling will only be at night, for the day night temperature difference a lot of Highlander plants and orchids require. Also, the fogging will only be on for small intervals throughout the day, or I could just keep a humidifier on nonstop (we have a few extra). The fogging won't be on constantly, as that really would mess a house up, I just want to keep humidity up a bit.

I doubt you'll get lower than that without an air conditioner.

If your plant closet is closed, the RH will climb sufficiently just from evaporation from your plants and media. You are asking for serious mold trouble if you fog in there.

What is the day/night shift just from having the light fixtures turn off? That might be sufficient.

Have you looked into solid state (Peltier) cooling?

I've looked into peltiers, but am not really sure about them. Some people say they're great, and then some people don't, so I'm not sure about them. The lighting is led, and they don't really produce much heat while on. If evaporation will be enough to keep humidity up then I might not have to fog, even if it is for short intervals. I was just saying fog for 10 seconds every thirty minutes or so, maybe something like that. But I might not need it anyway.

All electrical light sources generate heat, but in LED's, it's in the driver, not the light emitter itself.

Have you measured your day & night temperatures and humidity? It sounds like you're trying to solve issues that may-, or may not even exist - as much fun at the project might be...

Thing is, I haven’t even bought the lights, those are the last things I have to get, but from my experience with all other leds, is that they really don’t affect temperatures much of a noticeable amount. Of course This time it could be different, and with my luck it probably is, but from what I’ve read I chose leds partially BECAUSE they have a lower general heat output. What I’m trying to do is provide an environment for cool-growing orchids, which come from cloud forests that experience drops in temperature at night, and I would rather have the environment ready BEFORE I get them than afterwards:biggrin:. Also, things don’t really
Change much at night (yes I’ve measured), but of course, that could change when I get the leds. This may be a dumb question, but is the the temperature drop itself important, or the fact that it goes down to 60/50 degrees? :hmm

For touchy orchids like that I would most certainly set up all the equipment, and test, before buying any plants.

There are a lot of people on Orchid Board growing cloud forest plants in cooler areas of their homes. I think proper night temperatures are the most important factor, rather than how many degrees it drops. Many cloud forest plants tolerate surprisingly high daytime temperatures if nights are cool enough.

It is generally very expensive to maintain a cool area for cool plants in a warm house.

I would love to grow Draculas but I simply can't due to high temps/low HR in summer.
I could try to setup an artificial environment but it would be too "fragile".

BTW, where do you live in the US? That's an important piece of info in this case.

In the triad area of NC.

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In the triad area of NC.

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Oops. Doublepost.

As far as I've seen online your climate is somewhat humid and not that hot, in fact it's somewhat cool during the year at night.

Temperature ranges must not be taken as black and white. Plants can get acclimatized and sometimes there's good surprises.

Although I'm not a cloud forest orchid grower, maybe you could tell us which genus are you planning to grow.
That's also an important piece of information.:)

It's definitely humid, but it's not that hot...... And then it is......... And then it isn't again. Temperature fluctuation is pretty wild here, so you never know quite what you're gonna get, but I do know our summers are HOT (one of the perks of living in NC!) on our warmest summers temps can even go to 101°, but that's not the norm, it's generally somewhere from 70 -95°. In the blue Ridge and smokies though, if you're wanting to grow cool-loving orchids, that's the place to be. If you're at a decent altitude, the conditions are as described: super humid, the fog literally rolls in like a horror movie, can't even see out the window going up Mount mitchell, it's a wonder we've never got in a wreck up there. Cool nights and warm, not hot days. It's the exact same conditions in a cloud forest except one thing....... The catch is that winter is AWFUL! it's absolutely freezing up the mountain and on the highest peaks the winter temps go below 0° fairly often. The only things that I grow that survive our chilly winters, (yes it's cold in the triad area too,) are my carnivores, and orchids like tipularia, platanthera, aplectrum, cypripedium, and epipactis. So I would need a cloud forest mini-biome no matter where I live. But I'm not complaining atleast I don't live in Canada wink ;) wink. Here are some examples of what I want to grow.... Paphiopedilums, phragmipediums, soterosanthus, rossioglossum, angraecum, peristeria, anguloa, those particularly. Some of these are intermediate but still like cool nights. Sorry about the rambling, I probably sound like an ourstate magazine by now XD.

From your description it doesn't seem that bad.
From all the orchids you've mentioned I only grow a Paph leannum which is a cool/intermediate growing orchid and I've been sucessful without any problems so far (I have it for more than 3 years).
My temps in summer are warm day and night (high 70/low 80's) without variation and the humidity is around 20~30%. It just needs extra watering.

In winter it goes to the 80% and temps are in the low 50's range.

Yeah it's not too bad here, it's just the winter that destroys stuff. It's not the summer, summers fine, it just gets too cold in the winter to keep a small greenhouse warm.......

Most of what you wanted to grow are not really cool-growers like Masdevallia or Oxyglossum. You can easily grow there (I lived in Durham) without special enclosures. Cheapest way to grow them would be to grow them outside in the summer, and bring them in when it is cold.

If you want to grow cool growers, modified refrigerator/chest freezer might be a good option.

Temperature fluctuation is beneficial because how photosynthesis and respiration is influenced by temperature. Both photosynthesis and respiration rate increases with temperature (excluding extreme heat). There is an optimum temperature which maximizes the difference between photosynthesis and respiration (most carbon assimilation). At night, lower temp. decreases the respiration rate. But if it is too cold, some other enzymatic reactions don't work too well. But plants grow under a constant temp.

If you use cheap LEDs, it does increase the temperature of enclosed area quite a bit. Cheap ones have the conversion efficiency less than 40%. In other words, 60% of electricity is released as heat. So the heat generation is not just at the driver. Once the efficacy is close to 180-200lumen/W, I can put them inside of fairly tight enclosures without the overheating problems.

Maybe not all of them are cool growers, but all of them need temperature drops, which I'm still wondering how to provide.

To bloom some orchids need a temp drop but that happens naturaly, in general, between seasons instead of between night and day.
If that's the case, nature provides it to you and me.:)

If you haven't done it yet, I sugest you to investigate each of the potencial genera about this particular requirement.

True, but if I keep them outside, then they will die of 20° temps, and inside, suffer from lack of temperature change. I have actually read an AOS article on each type, and pretty much all of them are either cool growing or intermediate. I'm just wondering how to get a temperature change in the winter...... Temp change in summer, spring, and fall, No problem, nature does that, but in the cold months I will have to keep them inside which I'm still wondering about.

Maybe I was not clear enough...you get the temp drop between summer and winter, not between night and day...unless your whole house is heated.
If so, don't you have a spare room unheated?

I erm........ Don't really HAVE a house. That's why I'm using my closet :crackup:.

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Let me rephrase. I don't have a house. I don't have a car. I have a house to LIVE in, but it's not mine. Can anyone guess why I don't have either of these things? Look at my profile description, lol.

Ok, now I see...:rofl:
I also like hortofloriculture, also play multiple instruments, I almost made marine boilogy my profession...but I have my house, two cars and I'm 52.:biggrin:

Ok...what I meant is if you could find a place in the house where you live (;)), unheated and with light (don't need to be much...cloud forests are "dark" places) that would be good during the winter (I'm assuming, if a room is unheated, it won't get the same temps as outside.

We don't have a basement, or a sunroom, neither do we have an upstairs, im lucky to have enough room to breathe, also, I'm the only one in the house to have my own room, so I'm not going to ask for anything else. My closet is pretty much the only thing I've got to work with, so I'm sort of stuck with that.........

when I was in transit once, I just couldn't let some of my orchids go, so I bought a light stand from hausermanns, ready to go, and I still have it....it works great, and allowed me to keep my favs.....It is 1 1/2' by 4'...it came with a deep plastic drain tray which I filled with gravel. that's all the humidity I could muster. just plopped it in the living room with a timer, and I was good to go. the drainage tray had a hole and tube at one corner which drained into a big pot that the kitties loved to drink out of.....
the point is, orchids are an addition to your life, make them a part of it, but you cant make them all of your life....enjoy them!

Back to rbarata's point: Seasonal temperature variance and night length variance is probably more important to blooming for most orchids than day to night temperature variance.

Stuff you read in books and society Web pages is not the final word. You read one person's experience in their growing situation. Don't take information on the AOS site as definitive. There is no definitive growing method. Everybody's conditions are different.

When beginning, I can't recommend strongly enough that people start with orchids easy for them to grow in their temperatures without special equipment. Then branch out. Cold to cool growers tend to be expensive orchids that can die quickly with just one electrical problem, or one mistake by you. Who is going to operate your setup if you're gone for a week?

Also, if your parents think your schoolwork is suffering because you're fussing with orchids, what is likely to happen?

There are plenty of beautiful orchids of all sizes you can probably grow right now that will do fine in your room. High-elevation Nepenthes are large plants that won't fit well into a closet.

There are very good reasons why very few people grow orchids preferring cooler temperatures than they can provide. Heat is much easier to provide artificially on a small scale than cold.

Start with just a few orchids suited to your environment. When you can grow them well, you can expand your collection.

I will answer each paragraph one at a time.

Okay got it, thanks, that would be easier to provide.

Also good to know, maybe I should just ask someone who already owns it so I can get firsthand experience instead.

I’m actually homeschooled, will be starting liberty online soon, and get done earlier than public schools, while doing more work than the average public school teen.

For the last three I will just stick to the easier varieties that I’m growing, and not try to branch out. Besides, I guess I could try hybrids of lowland and highland nepenthes and maybe set up a large terrarium for touchy orchids like masdevallia, Lepanthes, and such.

gosh golly gee! get your parents to move over to bethania, north west of Winston salem, and buy my old family homeplace! my mom is selling out, and there is almost 2 acres, a gorgeous old log house, AND MY GREENHOUSE! 12 x 24 and oodles of fun!! lolAttachment 133567

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Thats funny, My mom HATES where we live and wants to move terribly...... she’d really like more land too. I know your joking though.

not kidding, its on Zillow.....look at houses for sale in bethania….very historic, and not much for sale there, jump on it! marvelous place!

Just one problem....... I have two brothers.

"I’m actually homeschooled, will be starting liberty online soon, and get done earlier than public schools, while doing more work than the average public school teen."

From experience, this will challenge you. It's a great education but, ES is right. Start with easy orchids first, the deadlines at Liberty are bonecrushing.

Yup, that's what I've heard. Writing, writing, and more writing. Luckily I have a quick hand but I plan to spend quite a bit of the day on schoolwork.

If you want to talk about that, pm me. There are resources to help you, take full advantage of them.

We're all rooting for you!

Can't be harder than Latin, I was supposed to learn the entire language in two years. Spanish has two declensions, Latin has SIX. having to keep up with makrons and all the symbols are crazy, but the worst part for me was the fact the the sentences weren't even in ORDER! You have to make another entire chart to unscramble the sentence. It also depends whether you are doing ecclesiastical or some other form. There are no definite rules in Latin, there's ALWAYS, an exception. Took my piano teacher 5 years and that's when she already knew 6 languages! Lol.

In my experience, one brother is a problem. Two brothers is a catastrophe. (Kidding, bro. you know I love you)

You're getting solid advice from the gang that will save you money and stress. Find the ones that grow well in your conditions, hone your skills, and branch out slowly.
(**so she says, tripping over plant #103 and googling Ray's comment about solid state (Peltier) cooling for one struggling masde...)