Neofinetia falcata jukai
 

I had been watching Satomi’s eBay listings and just had to have this one. Satomi held the shipping until our weather warmed up, it’s been gawd awful cold and windy. Finally we had a few days of warm weather and this little one arrived safely on Thursday of this week. Today it’s back to winter weather with cold, snow and more wind.

Jukai is a variety of Seikai though not a mutation. The difference between the two plants are Seikai has mud brown roots and stem while Jukai has green roots and stem. Seikai has pink irregular shaped flowers, Jukai has white flowers, same wonky shape. They both have the curvy leaves, look very similar. They are a bean leaf, my favorite of the Neos.

This plant has 6 growths and is a nice size clump. It is smaller in size (leaf span) than my Seikai. It is so cute and a awesome addition to my collection. Here is my new treasure!

That's one cool looking Neo! I love it.

Great new treasure. Can you explain the difference between clones and seed plants? Also are some plants cutting from the parent plant. And does any of this make any difference in the cost of the neofinetia?

Gorgeous little Beauty! :) Love the color of the leaves.

Thank you! I really NEEDED this one, just so cute.

---------- Post added at 10:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

Thanks! It really is a neat one, so small! I am not the best at explaining this but I’ll give it a try. As I understand it a clone is made from the new growing tip of a plant. The tip is cut off and used to start new growths. These growths should be the same as the parent plant but sometimes mutations occur. I don’t really understand how the growing tip is processed though. Seed plants are propagated from seed, would take forever! Cuttings, or divisions as most are called I believe is the best chance of getting a plant that is exactly like the parent plant because it IS the parent plant. Divisions are the most pricy. Sometimes when you re-moss a Neo, or repot it, the clump may self divide...a fan may fall off of the main plant or a growth of a few fans may fall away from your parent plant. These have their own roots and can easily be potted up into a new plant.

I have a few single growth Neos or Neos with maybe 3 fans that I’ve purchased from Al’s Orchids. These have all been divisions from his original plants and occurred when he remossed his plants.

I hope that answered your question somewhat, the clone process is more complicated than I explained or than I fully understand. Maybe someone with propagation experience will help with a clearer definition.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Thank you! It really is a nice little Neo and smaller in size than I expected. In my opinion, tiny is best! This little jukai is not much larger than my Kuroshinju! It is much smaller than my Seikai.

Thanks Patty that help. I was looking at Japanese Orchids and they list "HIME-SEIKAI is a seedling plant of SEIKAI. Even though they are seedling, all of them have nice flower and grow big as normal SEIKAI. Now Himeseikai is started to consider as SEIKAI itself." Are these plants grown from seed and the same as Seikai as they state or am I not understanding this?

Hime Seikai as I understand is the seedling of Seikai, grown from seed. Not a division from a Seikai but a seedling. Kind of confusing to me as well.

I see you are looking at Japanese Orchids eBay listing, Satomi has interesting descriptions as English is not her first language. She is very nice and helpful, you could ask her anything you are unsure of.

Satomi’s family is Seed Engei in Japan and I believe her father is the head of the Japanese Fukiran Society. Satomi travels to Japan several times per year to bring Neos to the US and sells them on eBay and through a mailing list that she emails each month, sometimes by monthly.

A cute little bugger.

There's actually a lot of misinformation going around about the relation of Seikai to Hime-Seikai and Jukai.

Jukai and Hime-Seikai is actually not officially known to be related to Seikai. The similarity in appearance is not known to be anything beyond coincidence, although of course there are reasonable doubts to that as well. In any case, Jukai and Hime-Seikai are siblings of each other though.

Seikai itself is a very old variety found in the wild over 200 years ago. Seikai is self-sterile and all Seikai are divisions of each other.

Hime-Seikai and Jukai on the other hand were found in Korea among the selfed seedlings of a rather normal looking Japanese wild plant. While Hime-Seikai and Jukai are themselves also self-sterile, there were numerous Hime-Seikai and Jukai offspring in that original selfing of the parent, and it is said that subsequent selfings of that parent plant have resulted in additional Hime-Seikai and Jukai offspring. Among all of the offspring, any of this type that have pigmentation in the stem and root tips are named Hime-Seikai, while any that do not produce any anthocyanin pigmentation are named Jukai.

References for the origin of the variety can be found on the Korean Neofinetia Association official description of Hime-Seikai and Jukai varieties. Both are registered in Korea:

Hime-Seikai: 희청해(姬靑海)
Jukai: 수해(樹海)

Corroboration can also be found in Japanese on Page 203 and 249 in the book:
富貴蘭事典・315種の特徴と楽しみ方
Fukiran Jiten: 315 Shu no Tokucho to Tanoshimikata
Fukiran Encyclopedia: Traits of 315 Varieties and How to Enjoy Them
Published 2004, Kazuhiro Horiuchi and Masaru Horiguchi.

Thanks Hakumin this clarifies the different neofinetias. It is hard for me to understand the listing being a novice.

Hakumin, once again thank you for your information. I do find it odd that Hime-Seikai is said to be a seedling of Seikai. I found today, Orchids Web states that Seikai is sterile. I have seen many times Hime-Seikai described as the seedling of Seikai, very confusing indeed.

Thank you for taking the time to explain these plants to us. The Jukai I purchased was described as a variety of Seikai. Not a mutation from Seikai but normal seedling Neofinetia. This is Satomi’s description, maybe she says a “variety “ meaning it’s growth habit is similar to Seikai. Your knowledge in these matters are certainly appreciated!

What a beautiful plant Patty! Nice addition to the collection.

Hakumin, thanks for the information. The world of Neos is so fascinating, but also so confusing!

Thank you Camille, it really is a cute one and so tiny. You are correct about the fascinating world of Neos and not having any source of information available really makes it difficult to decide on which plant to purchase. I would love a nice informative book, in English. Between Seed Engei’s listings and Orchids Web’s that is about all the information available. NWO has next to nothing as far as helpful information shown for their plants.

Hakumin has been a wonderful member on this forum, he has helped me with many questions in the past and I throughly appreciate his time and information.

I have found information on other forums as well AND Hime-Seikai has always been described as a seedling of Seikai, a sterile Neo.

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 AM ----------

Camille, to add further confusion to the wonderful world of Neofinetia shopping, I found Jyukai listed at Orchids Web. They state Jyukai has the same appearance as Seikai, noting the color differences in the roots and stem and flower. They also state Jyukai as not as easily obtained as Seikai. I find the spelling difference confusing as well. My plant is Jukai with the same kanji as Jyukai! Yikes! My head is spinning:/

I was thinking about that problem over Christmas vacation, when I was looking for Neo info. There is tons of info scattered throughout the Neo forum here, other forums and other websites. Building a collaborative wiki with growing info, variety info (and photos) would be an ideal solution, but there are issues about the hosting of such a thing.

This forum has more information than most. I believe it was here that someone said at one time Satomi and her father were going to issue their extensive catalog in English. Apparently that never happened or at least not yet.

This problem arises because there is more than one way to romanize the Japanese language.

the sound /ju/ in Jukai, should sound like the /ju/ in the word juice or june.

The Revised Hepburn romanization method prescribes that that sound be romanized with the letters JU. However another system, Nihonshiki, prescribes that sound to be written with the letters ZYU, with the identical pronunciation. JYU is a common layman error caused by arbitrarily combining the two systems.

Personally I prefer using the Revised Hepburn system as it is intended to make it easier for English speakers to pronounce Japanese correctly. The International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants also gives the preference of using Revised Hepburn (they also devote a small but significant section of the code specifically to this exact naming problem). Nihonshiki Romanization attempts to preserve Japanese orthography rather than pronunciation, so it's sometimes hard to determine correct pronunciation using Nihonshiki.

However, part of the problem is also that some vendors are lazy in their romanization methods and don't follow either standard properly which compounds the spelling complications. For example, you will sometimes see 曼珠沙華 written as Manjyushage. Correct revised Hepburn is Manjushage, and correct Nihonshiki is Manzyusyage.

There are also other complications with reading Japanese too as Kanji characters often have more than one way to read them. So you sometimes get alternate pronunciations of names too that sound nothing like each other such as Kogane-Nishiki and Ogon-Nishiki. Both are possible pronunciations of 黄金錦 linguistically speaking, but only Kogane-Nishiki is correct when it comes to the Neo variety name.

The whole thing is actually not just a problem for Neo growers, but for pretty much anyone who grows plants that have their varietal origins in Japan. Take for example the well known double flowed species of cherry blossom, Prunus 'Kanzan' You'll see it also sold as Prunus 'Kwanzan' and Prunus 'Sekiyama' for the same reasons above.

Of course then there's also the whole issue of long vowel sounds and spacing/hyphenation and you get problems like the romanization of names like 紀州甲龍. That one you'll find spelled as Kishu Koryu, Kishuu Kouryuu and Kishū Kōryū, or Kishukoryu, Kishuukouryuu and Kishūkōryū, or Kishu-Koryu, Kishuu-Kouryuu and Kishū-Kōryū, etc.....

And then there's also the insistence that some people have of completely translating the name and for example will call Jukai, Sea of Trees, or call Setsuzan, Snow Mountain or something like that. Not quite as extensive a problem in the world of Neos, but a huge problem in other circles such as Haworthias.

And then there's the whole issue where all neo names have a Korean reading to the name as well which usually sound absolutely nothing like the Japanese reading, with sheer complexities that I wouldn't be able to explain here...

The whole romanization thing is a mess that even international horticultural nomenclature authorities have tried to wrestle with and have yet to completely solve. However, as you get more used to the various common spelling variations and misspellings, it'll become easier to navigate through the muck.

WOW no wonder I was confused. I guess that if I like the looks of the neofinetia I will not worry about it lineage. Thanks Hakumin for the great explanation.

Hakumin, you are amazing! This really is helpful, no wonder there is so much confusion for the common Neo growers. Thank you again for navigating us through the muck! I find it fascinating when it is explained.

Maybe you should write a book?

In Neos, there a number of different characteristics that are regularly heritable by seed. These include many leaf shape traits such as bean leaves, certain types of variegation such as Tora-fu and Chiri-fu, and flower color. Many varieties where these traits are the main characteristic will be regularly propagated by seed and sold under the same name as the parent given that the specimen carries the same essential characteristics as the parent.

There are some characteristics however that cannot be inherited via seed such as Fukurin and Nakafu variegation, and then there are varieties that are sterile or self sterile so cannot produce seed. These varieties can only be propagated via asexual means.

The most common way to propagate these plants that can't be propagated by seed is via division. A plant which has grown into a clump is divided and you create new specimens of the variety in that way. This is by far the most reliable way to propagate neos while still ensuring that the essential characteristics remain intact.

Another potential means to propagate certain varieties, especially the sterile ones would be through micropropagation, which many in the orchid world refer to as mericloning. This is the process used to attempt to create numerous genetically identical plants using a population of cells harvested from a plant. While this is a common practice for species such as Phalaenopsis, what I understand is that it has not yet been extensively researched or put into main stream practice for Neos. In addition, using micropropagation techniques does not guarantee that all of the resulting offspring will be genetically identical to the parent.

Beyond that too, there are some characteristics, such as Fukurin and Nakafu variegation that cannot be reliably propagated using micropropagation, and the only reliable way to propagate those is still only via division.

So, the difference between seed grown plants, divisions and micropropagated clones....

For most purposes, to absolutely ensure that you have the exact same characteristics in two plants, they will have to be divisions of each other. This is a slow way to propagate Neos, and because of that, plants that can only be propagated by division will usually be more expensive, or at least take a long time to come down in price. On the other hand, those varieties also tend to be much more consistent in its characteristics across all specimens of that variety.

There are many expensive varieties that can only be propagated by division. Higuma is one example. Higuma was discovered 131 years ago in 1887. There is record of when it was first divided and sold, which was in 1902, and the first division sold for 1000 yen at that time. It's difficult to translate that precisely into the value of money nowadays, but it had the purchasing power of about 5000 pounds of rice. Nowadays, Higuma is still extraordinarily expensive (perhaps even more expensive) costing about $35,000 for a good quality single growth.

On the other hand, Seikai was originally discovered over 200 years ago. However because it is a much faster grower and easier clumper than Higuma and more stable in its characteristics across growth, gradually, the price came down as it was repeatedly divided over the years, and nowadays you can get one for about $50-$100

Propagation by seed is by far a faster method of multiplying specimens of Neos and it is commonly used for colored flower varieties such as Shutenno or Hisui, and also with many tiger variegated types such as Setsuzan, and also for a few other types of variegation such as Fugaku. Because of this, these seed propagated varieties are often cheaper because there is simply a larger supply of these varieties. However, with the increased supply, there is also an increase in the variability between each specimen. Some Shutenno specimens will have darker flowers than others, and leaf lengths and other minor traits may also be different between specimens due to seed variability.

An example of a fairly recently discovered variety where seed propagation has dropped the price down a lot is Homeiden. When the variety was first discovered in 1993, it would easily fetch over $10,000 in auction. The variety is a fast grower and clumper so the price dropped gradually over the years until someone successfully propagated it by seed. At that point, the cost of the variety plummeted, and nowadays, you can get an original division for about $100 and seed grown specimens for about $50.

Micropropagation would perhaps be a way to reap the benefits of both division and seed by quickly multiplying plants while still maintaining a better consistency of characteristics across each specimen. While the consistency would still not be as good as division, it should be better than seed propagation. However, micropropagation is not necessarily an easy procedure, and it seems that there is still not quite enough research done by scientists to be able to reliably micropropagate Neos specifically.

Thanks Hakumin, this really explains the different ways to get new plants. You have been a great help in explaining the process of new neofinetias. I feel like I have a better understanding of what the listings mean from vendors. These posts of Hakumin should be in a sticky.

This is perfect, thank you! The explanation of micropropagation clones is very interesting. The muck is a bit clearer now, thanks Hakumin!

You're really enjoying the fact that I used the word Muck, aren't you. :p

Anyway, no problem. Any time. :)

Yes, I am! A very good word and fitting. Nice to have you here to clear things up for us.