Help with a rootless phalaenopsis
 

Hi everyone! This is my first post on Orchid Board, and I'm excited to join the community! :)

So this year I received a phal (my third phal, fourth orchid) for the new year. It had a really thick spike (thickest I've seen, maybe 1cm) with three branches. All branches were blooming and budding.

However during early February buds began blasting. The plant itself didn't look like it was suffering. It was potted in tightly packed sphagnum with a sort of decorative layer all around the pot (the hay-looking stuff on the outside).
https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/7412523f0...ome-design.jpg


I managed to take the hay out, and (with some difficulty) removed all the moss. There were a few dead roots here and there, but the majority of the root system was firm and healthy-looking.

https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/4df254cc0...ome-design.jpg

https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/4ab25f2e0...ome-design.jpg

I potted it in with some bark, perlite, and charcoal (the Better Gro orchid mix) and soaked the pot.

All was well until a few weeks later. All the leaves were flopping over.
https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/2e5254560...ome-design.jpg


I unpotted it today and found that ALL of the roots in the medium had died and/or rotted. I'm not exactly sure if the roots died first and then rotted, or if rot itself caused the death of the root system. I cut off all the dead roots. The very bottom of the stem was black and squishy, so I cut that part off and sprayed it with some hydrogen peroxide. I also cut the flower spike (kind of hurt to do so :( ).

I'm left with this:

https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/27527d530...ome-design.jpg

https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/323276150...ome-design.jpg
There are maybe three tiny root nubbins that survived, and one small aerial root. I decided to leave it unpotted for now to let the stem cut dry.



As of now, my plan is to spray the root a couple times a day to keep it moist. However, next week I'm leaving for vacation and I won't be back for a week.

What should I do to keep it moist for the week that I am away?

Thanks in advance!

:hello Welcome to orchid board!!! Sorry you are having to go through the root less orchid issue. Honestly unless there is stem rot or crown rot it should be fine while you are gone. There are a few things that can be done but I wouldn't begin those things while you are gone.

For now leave the orchid bare root and soak what is left of the root system for about an hour a day then let it dry out until the next days soak. Just make sure not to get water in the crown or between the leaf joints.

The orchid in this picture only had those two really old brown roots when I started the bare root method. This orchid, like yours, had hardly any roots and its leaves went limp, but as you see with patience*** it will bounce back.

That said, I would do these soaks daily until you go on vacation. When you do leave I would keep the orchid away from any direct light and a cool spot so it won't loose too much moisture while you are gone. You could place a humidity tray or something that will keep the air around it moist until you return. Then I think you can explore aggressive methods if you wish...

I hope this helps some!

Honest but brutal answer would be, bin it. When you get back, buy another and repot it into large bark chunks and nothing else. With a phal my recommendation always is, put it in a larger, shallow pot.

Any fine material will tend to block the gaps between the bark chunks and then you risk suffocating the roots.

I would agree with Bil. It's possible that the plant could be recovered, but not easily. It would be both emotionally and probably financially easier to replace it.

It may not be easy, but I tend to enjoy challenges. It makes the plant hobby interesting :P
As for being emotionally easier, I think I would respectfully disagree with you on that point. I am rather attached to all my plants and find it extremely hard to let one go that easily when I know there is still a chance for survival. I think the pride one feels when a plant they've rescued recovers and goes on to bloom is a better feeling than the simple happiness of just getting a new plant. That's what I feel anyway :P

As for the orchid-It did well during the week I was gone from home-nothing major happened. I put it in a darker and cooler area than it was in previously.
I currently have the stem tied gently to a flower stake with a ribbon. The base of the stem is suspended over some sphagnum moss to keep the humidity around the base high. The leaves of the plant are drooping out over the edge of the pot. Three leaves have yellowed and one has dropped. I spray the root with some water once a day.
It's been three weeks since I last put it in this setup, and today I found something exciting :D

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S...2017-04-02.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I...2017-04-02.jpg
I think there's a root tip emerging! :D
Should I spray it a little once a day to keep it moist or just leave it alone? The humidity in the room is around 34%.

You can lay it on a bed of damp spag and maybe put a clear bag over it, leave the end open.

WooHoo!!! That looks like a root to me! I would let it grow out before watering it. I have found that new roots take a bit of time to mature before they are able to take up water. This is a good sign though! :)

Personally, I would pot it up in coarse bark, and use a few rocks to keep it vertical and stable. Water it as often as you like, you can't over water in coarse bark.

DON'T FIDDLE WITH IT!

Seriously. Leave it alone so that the roots can grow into the bark because if it moves around the roots will almost certainly die.

Rootless Phal
 

Good job Goldstar! Glad you hung in there with the phal.

Personally, I think your plant developed some type of rot which may have occurred from the old compacted medium needing to be replaced and perhaps retaining too much water. Putting fresh sphag below the orchid and keeping it moist probably helped with the new root development. Hopefully you will be able to retain some leaves while the new root continues to grow.

I don't really know what your growing conditions are so it's difficult for me to make any recommendations. However, what I would suggest is that you use wooden
bamboo skewers from now on to determine whether your phals need to be watered. Prior to watering, just pull the skewer out & press on your cheek to determine how wet the medium is. It will surprise you how wet your phal is near the bottom even though the top looks completely dry and you were getting ready to water it.

You can replant your phal in fresh sphag, bark or a mixture of the two which is what I use. Phals like to grow in sphag indoors because of the increased humidity it provides. Problems develop though when the sphag gets old, stays wet longer and often leads to disease.

If you repot in just bark or a mix, place a little layer of sphag around the top of the medium. That way if the top of the medium has dried out but the bottom is still wet, you can spray the sphag with some water. This will help the roots near the top stay moist and it increases the humidity around the phal.

Just be sure not to get water in the crown when you are spraying. If you do so accidentally, lay the phal on it's side for a period of time to let the water drain out of the crown or take the corner of a paper towel and stick it down between the leaves and the crown to draw the water out. Leaving it there will only lead to more rot.

Another thing I learned to do with my orchids is too add a 1/2 tsp. of physan 20 to each gallon of water. I read this somewhere when I was struggling to grow phals and I do believe it has helped. Personally, for me to successfully grow phals involved a lot of trial and error.

Let us know how your phal comes along. Good luck!

A couple of points.

Bamboo skewers don't work well with coarse bark.

You simply cannot overwater in clean, coarse bark.

If you mix moss with bark you reduce the rate at which air can reach the roots.

From someone on here I learn that phals in moss are less tolerant of cold.

If your phals rot or dry because you got them wet, then you are doing something else wrong. I have never yet had a phal die from wetting it.

I don't like the idea of putting physan in every watering. I am not saying things can get used to it, as they do to antibiotics, but it's a thought that would concern me.

Rot
 

bil, you and I have been at odds in the past as to the cause of rot in phals so I'm not going to respond to that issue. We can just agree to disagree.

Your growing conditions are important as to how often you would need to water. For one, I would not plant a phal in coarse bark because it would dry out too quickly. I grow indoors with a lot of fans but if you are growing in a greenhouse you might get a different result.

I use 75% medium sized orchiata (5a) with the remaining 25% a combination of New Zealand Sphag & sponge rock along with some medium sized charcoal. As long as you don't compress your medium to tightly, the sphag will not prevent air from reaching the roots.

As a matter of fact, if you refer to the following website, you will find an article by Steven A. Frowine which lists the pros and cons of different types of potting medium. You will see he lists the pros for sphag as "retains water and air." The article can be found at:

Deciding on a Potting Mix for Orchids - dummies

I have no problem sticking the bamboo skewer into my pot with this medium and I actually still use them in many of my orchids. There is an excellent article by Sue Bottom, St. Augustine Orchid Society which goes into detail about using sphag moss at:

http://staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/Sp...ySueBottom.pdf

Sue states "The air filled porosity of sphagnum moss (a measure of the void spaces in the potting mix) ranges from 15 to 26% under general conditions, comparable to bark and greater than peat moss."

The article also addresses the benefits of top dressing with sphag. I urge anyone considering using or adding sphag to their potting mix to first read this article.

As to the use of Physan 20 in my water, a mild dilution of Physan 20 is recommended as a preventative where a strong dilution is required for the treatment of fungus etc.

Anyway, this mix has worked for me with my conditions. You won't know what works in your conditions until you experiment with the different potting mediums. Hope this helps.

Please don't see our difference of opinion as a personal attack on you. It really isn't that.

Some oft repeated advice on here just strikes me as not making sense. It's a bit like the ham joint story. Evere heard of it?

There was a guy going round collecting recipes for a book. He was struck by a particularly nice ham joint and asked the lady of the house for the recipe. She was happy to give it to him. The recipe started off, "Take the ham joint, wash it and cut off the corner part."
He asked her why she cut off the ham joint corner, and she replied, "It's my mother's recipe.. She lives down the road aways if you would like to know why."
Off he went, and asked the mother why she cut off the corner of the joint. "She replied "Well, that's the way my mother told me to do it."
Sure enough, when he asked, the grandmother was still alive, and off they all went to her house. When he explained everything, and asked her why she said to cut the corner off the joint, she replied " That's because back then I didn't have a pot big enough to fit the whole joint in, so I had to cut the corner off to make it fit."

bil, no offense taken. Liked the ham analogy.

These last few posts show how very different growing styles can achieve the same result. Sharon (I hope that's right, I'd be sheepish if I got the name wrong) doesn't want Phal leaves wet. Bil doesn't care. Both grow successfully. Bil likes big bark chunks, while Sharon feels they dry too quickly. Again, both grow successfully.

I personally have an ongoing love/hate relationship with sphagnum. Used in a closed pot I believe sphagnum leads to root rot and, if too tightly packed around the base of a Phal, can allow moisture to remain in creases and folds, leading to bacterial or fungal issues. However, I use it in basket pots with my Phals, where it retains water for about 36-48 hours after watering, and allows good air movement to the roots. I suppose my point is that, in fact, we do NOT all always put our pants on one leg at a time.

Who needs pants anyway...;)

I cannot remember who it was that said that phals suffer more from low temps if in moss, ie they shouldn't go below 15 for goodness sake. (Mine routinely hit 12 and once or twice 11 C)
If you read this, do please comment so that when I refer to it I can credit you with that fact.
To me it is yet another reason that beginners should be advised to shun moss.

I have a phal. that is in a similar state as the OP. I had all my roots die off and after cutting the roots and affected stem portion back, I sprayed with peroxide and let dry. I then filled my plastic pot with a medium mixture of bark, pearlite and charcoal 3/4 of the way and set my plant upright on top of that. I then added a layer of sphagnum moss around the top portion of the pot that covered the base of the stem. I keep this layer moist by spraying it periodically and my grow space is kept around 50-57% humidity with dim sunlight exposure in the afternoon. After about a month and a half or so I checked and sure enough I have a new root growing. It is about an inch long already. I had actually almost given up and was taking it out of the pot to trash it when I noticed the root. So I very carefully placed it back into the moss and hope that I will get to see it come back to full health some day. I bought this particular one as a rescue from a big box store for $5.

Perseverance Growing Orchids
 

'jkoferdahl' is absolutely correct. The bottom line is the conditions you are able to provide your orchids will determine the best way to grow them successfully. What works for me might not work for you and there is a huge difference between growing indoors and in a greenhouse.

Unfortunately, you don't know initially what will work and what won't. There is a reason why orchids have the reputation for being difficult to grow and why, in the beginning, you will lose many orchids and will swear on many occasions you are going to give this hobby up. But once you get it right, you will experience success and the exitement of an orchid in bloom that you grew. How many people do you know who can say that?

I just hope that some of the things I've learned along the way might help others but I can't guarantee my recommendations will work for another grower. I'm just suggesting one more thing you can try that might work but it all still comes down to trial and error. A lot of trial and error.

And when you are finally able to successfully grow them, you will receive considerable admiration, wanted or not, from others who never even considered accepting the challenge and that is a great feeling. The feeling of accomplishment.

So hang in there and bil, put your damn pants back on.

Sharon and her sheepdogs

Oh you guys are hilarious! XDD
Thanks for all your opinions! I love reading about all your different growing styles and what works/doesn't work for you. It makes this community so diverse which is something that I really enjoy. :)

Here's my plan for the near future:
I'll wait until the root grows a little longer, maybe 1/2 an inch/up to an inch, then carefully pot it up in some bark with a small layer of sphagnum on top.
As for my low humidity, I'm considering either a humidifier or one of those large plastic bins to put the orchid in. What do you all think?

As for growing conditions-
Currently the orchid sits about four feet from a northwest (mostly west) facing window. Next to that window are two west facing windows and one south facing window. It gets bright light pretty much the entire day. If it matters much, the color of the walls are light-ish green, and the floor is wooden. The temperature in the room is around 73*F during the sunniest days right now in April and around 68*F during the night. Outside it's getting warmer every day :biggrin:

Thanks for all your help so far! :D

One thing I do, is get a clear produce bag and place it over the plant. If you can put a couple wires or sticks in there to suspend it. It acts like a little humidity tent.

Oh no, no, no, no, NO! That just won't do.

Walls must, absolutely MUST, be white to reflect the light, and floors tiled to allow for water splashes.

Anything else, and the orchids will revolt.

:coverlaugh:

I did consider that, but (to me at least :blushing:) I think a bin looks neater. :p I'll keep it that in mind however. Thanks!

So I've decided to use a bin (or bag) instead of humidifying the entire room-I think it's easier because whenever the door to the room is left open any humidity gained just escapes out the door :roll:

I think I'll leave the potted orchid inside with maybe a small bowl of water. I plan on opening it up to air it out maybe every two to three days. Hopefully mold doesn't become a problem :P


Oh no D:
*rushes to the store to buy paint and flooring*
*paints walls white and slaps tiles all over the floor*
Have the orchids been appeased? :pray:

Check out this poem... the author, Sue Fordyce (daughter of one of the great classic hybridizers, Frank Fordyce) gave me permission to share it, it's our story for many of us... (I've shared it before on this forum, in other threads so apologies for any who have already seen it and certainy see themselves in it)
Obsession

Orchid Obsession
 

I have not read this poem in a very, very long time but it is wonderful and I'm sure we can all relate.! I'm still giggling over it. Thanks for making my day!

That is hysterical. A new one to me. I had to read it to my hubby and he got quiet a hoot out of it. So true so true.

Hilarious! And I'm trying to downsize--guess it is hopeless!

:biggrin: Resistance is futile...

Good news and bad news....mostly bad news
 

Hello everyone!
It's been about 3 months since my last update, and a lot of things have happened since then-



Quick summary-
In an attempt to help the root tips along and to preserve the orchid's leaves from dehydrating too much, I've placed it in a plastic box with wet paper towels(for humidity) and a small fan to keep the air circulating. The humidity stays around 78-82% inside the box.
Unfortunately the orchid has lost all of its leaves except two new ones that are growing extremely slowly, if at all.
The new roots have also slowed down significantly and may not be growing anymore. On two of the new roots there are a couple of gray-black patches that stand out against the green when the roots are moistened. I'm pretty sure I haven't bumped the tips or anything
I wet the roots it has once a day.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-W...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6...2017-07-26.jpg

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

Two of the leaves began to yellow and dropped once they were completely dry.

However the last leaf it dropped did so before it was completely dry. It fell off the plant with a soft touch-it felt normal (no mushiness, etc.)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P...2017-07-26.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--...2017-07-26.jpg

Back of the leaf-
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0...2017-07-26.jpg

Could there possibly be some sort of internal fungal disease or some other sort of ailment the orchid has that I don't know about?

The orchid gets temps of around 68*F at night to 80*F during the day. The fan is constantly on inside the box. It gets maybe less than an hour of direct sun thru the windows. It receives light mostly from a NW window and S window (partially shaded by a tree outside). I water the roots with RO water (around 9ppm of TDS) with no fertilizer added.
Is the plant simply dropping leaves so it can focus on the two new leaves? Or is it on a slow decline and there's nothing left I can do? Was I wrong to place it inside the box?
Honestly I'm kind of scared right now-I have no idea if I'm doing anything wrong. Some guidance would be extremely appreciated. :pray::bua:

Those new leaves look great, as do the new roots. The plant is recovering! Now that it has good new leaves, it doesn't need to try to maintain the old ones, which weren't contributing much. The new ones are big enough now to photosynthesize and feed the plant. But they're still small, so contribution is less that they will provide once they get bigger. It's pulling itself up by its own bootstraps. So I think that whatever you're doing, keep on doing it. Orchids grow slowly under the best of circumstances, and more slowly when they have less in the way of leaves and roots that are ideal... but as the leaves and roots get bigger, they'll contribute more and it'll probably go a little faster (but never fast, orchids just don't do that)

:whew: Thanks Roberta! Good to know that nothing seems unusual.

There's another problem that I need help with-
I'm going on a trip soon for about two weeks during which the orchid won't be able to receive any water. Do you think it'll be fine as long as I find some way to keep the box humidified for the duration of the trip?
Right now I moisten the paper towels about once a day when they dry out. I'm thinking of putting a couple of cups filled with water with paper towels bridging each cup (I'll add a sketch below of what I mean).
Would you have an even better way to keep the inside of the box humidified?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-o...2017-07-27.jpg
(the light blue line is the paper towel)

What about a string if synthic, or a strand or two of microfiber mop?

First, get the plant as wet as you can get it... Soak for a couple of hours, then flush under running water. You can also add a few more paper towels, and soak well. Or even elevate the plant just a bit (rocks or whatever and then you can even leave some free-standing water in the bottom of the box (just don't have the orchid sitting in it) Give it a running start, and it will slowly dry out while you're gone, when you get back give it another through bath, then go back to the regimen that has been working. But don't be afraid of starting the plant off really wet - it will have plenty of time to dry in your absence.

Bad news...again :(
 

I've decided to leave water on the bottom of the box with a couple of paper towels standing on the side-testing the idea now.
Unfortunately, something else has happened (or has begun to happen). Today, when spraying the roots of the phal, I noticed something extremely concerning--
http://i.imgur.com/SsrHIWN.jpg
There are wrinkles forming on the new leaf! :shock::bua::_(
I've been spraying the roots every day with RO water. I did start spraying with a fertilizer solution (~171ppm) yesterday-was it too soon?

Some shots of the roots-
http://i.imgur.com/b5qVALr.jpg

There are some small brownish spots on this root-
http://i.imgur.com/3cMaeQu.jpg

Note the grayish patch in the middle of the root on the right-
http://i.imgur.com/u9XWXLE.jpg

I'd also like to ask another question. I could move the box (and the orchid) to another room with more light and warmth, especially at night. Would it be a good idea or would it be a bad idea to keep moving it around?

Thank you all so much for sticking with me in helping this orchid recover. I truly appreciate it :)

I think just leave it. And relax... Frankly, I would not bother with fertilizer at this point. Fertilizer will help a healthy plant grow better, but won't make a weak one grow... Remember, orchids teach patience. It could take several months for it to grow enough roots to give the energy/water-absorption capacity to do much for the rest of the plant. Low light probably reduces stress... remember, you're not trying to get it to bloom now, just to keep it going until it's ready to get to the next state. So my advice would be to just let it be.

What if a plant is suffering from a severe nutrient deficiency? Wouldn't withholding fertilizer result in making the plant even sicker?

It would be rare if that were the case. Maybe a few years of only very pure water might create a problem, but that's not the case with your plant - leaves are nice and green, so it is making its own carbs... without roots, it can't absorb much in the way of fertilizer at any rate. It needs the fertilizer nutrients to grow well eventually, but in very small amounts. Epiphytic orchids are very efficient. In the case of your rootless Phal, you mostly need to provide it enough humidity that it does not dessicate any more (since those little roots can't absorb much water) and leave it alone to grow. You would not want to give more light, since that would tend to increase water loss from leaves. Once it has grown some roots, it will be able take up more water and fertilizer nutrients. This can take months, not days or weeks. So patience...

Goldstar (Koshi et al): I have been reading your posts with interest and not saying much. Here's my two cents...orchid growing is not a race; not a competition, it is a growing, learning, experience. Like a craft to be perfected...like a potter with clay...you will lose some, just as he throws out or reworks new pieces from mistakes. All your mistakes will be useful in growing someday. Please, please, take a deep breath and relax. Enjoy the living things you care for, a new root or shoot, enjoy them as individual bits of success.

You are among experts, yes, but they learned just as you are. Think of them as coaches it mentors, not gods. Please, relax and enjoy what's been put in your care. Life is to be enjoyed, not endured or obsessed over. You are valued members of a community so please take this with the fondness ( and momness) that it's intended. Slow down, enjoy the journey of learning.
Carol

Your orchid looks a lot like mine that did the same thing. It lost the roots. Started growing a new leaf then lost the bigger leaves and is now a smaller plant with only small leaves and a few roots. I think the new roots couldn't support the larger leaves so it lost those. I don't know if this would help you, but what I did was use an empty fish tank (any glass or plastic box would do though) and I put the plant inside of the fish tank sitting on top of an inverted bowl. Then I put sphagnum moss on the bottom of the fish tank and thoroughly wet that. Then I used saran wrap to cover 3/4 of the tank. I think if you did that you could keep the orchid pretty humid while you were gone. You could also do this and have someone you trust come and water the orchid at the end of the first week. The other option is to soak the container the plant is in for an hour or so before you go and then put it in the fish tank.

*deep breath* :whew: Okay...relaxing

Thanks for helping me understand that Roberta.
I am beginning to understand that plants run on their own time, not "people time". I'm just used to seeing my other two phals grow relatively quickly, so seeing this one as though it's not doing anything makes me worry. :blushing:
I do jump in happiness whenever I see a new leaf or a new root emerging-whether it's on my phals or just on any other plant that I grow. I just really hate to lose a plant.
I have another question just out of curiosity-since orchids are CAM plants, would it be a little more important to keep it humid at night than during the day since its stomata are open during night? Whatever answer you give won't change how I'm keeping the phal currently (it's in the box 24/7)-I'm just curious.
I'll try to add some pics of its current setup tomorrow-I'm exhausted atm. :P

In the natural run of things, the temperature goes down at night and the humidity rises as that happens, at least in my climate. So the plant is "expecting" a humidity bath at night. It will happen naturally with whatever moisture you have available.

I have mine in different medium, from the chunky bark, mix with moss, and bare-rootet.
I'll assume you will read all the advices and try for yourself what works for you, and what you prefer.


Just wanted to say I totally agree on the rewarding part. It is more fun to bring an orchid back to health.

Two months apart. This one did had roots though, and lost only one leaf in recovery. When it will be strong enough to flower I don't know. But it's worth the wait. :biggrin: