Catasetum - To water or not to water ?
 

I said I would experiment with my After Dark catasetums because of my "contrarian" watering. They are grown in the same conditions and are roughly the same-sized.

Pot watered 1x per week for last 9 weeks ( A )
- about 1/4 cup a week. Watering always on opposite side to newest bulb. This has 3 new growths. 2 are definitely new bulbs, the third I'm not sure yet. In another thread there was extensive discussion on whether water stopped new roots from growing into the media. As you can see from the photo, the 2 new bulb growths are developing roots.
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Pot watered 1x per week, roughly last 3 weeks. ( B )
- about 1/4 cup a week. Watering always on opposite side to newest bulb. I checked today and noticed 2 new growths - still tiny, but definitely green.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1815d01c3d.jpg
early conclusions
in my conditions it seems that watering has not set the plants back at all. In fact the opposite has occurred and I am getting a jump start on the growing season. A has a 6 week headstart on B. I've never had more than 1 new growth per bulb. A has 3, and B has 2 ! Roots are developing well. Of course I don't know what is happening to the roots inside the pots.

Ill update monthly, knowing full well that there's many a slip twixt cup and lip.:D

I'm curious to see roots inside the media and the roots you can see as they dive into the media.

Wait until the new growth is at least 3 to 5 inches then resume watering....do not worry for your bulbs are fat and can provide nutrients to the new growth. You would also repot before giving it a watering regimen to provide space for the new roots growing.

? I'm getting all these growths despite watering. You've just repeated standard lore which my experiment disproves even at this early stage.

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It will be interesting to see the relative sizes of the pseudobulbs as they mature. By watering carefully on the opposite side from the newer bulbs, you are apparently preventing rot in the newest growths.

Do you plan to repot these plants? I'd like to see the roots when you do that, if you do. I bet they don't go dormant as would the roots on a plant that has not received water. The question is, which method will give the strongest new growth ?

Fun experiment!

Good luck with your experiment but disproving Fred Clarke and his SVO orchid growers who has been growing and creating hybrids of this kind of orchids for years might be quite ambitious. You better experiment with several species and hybrids rather than a handful to really present us with accurate results.

I may have to repot the 3 growth plant. Time will tell.
I used to believe that all the roots died during dormancy but that was in the days of using plastic pots only and not watering during dormancy. I changed my mind when I started using clay pots. When unpotting, many of the roots were "greenish" and it was a battle detaching them from the clay pot. I subsequently read that clay pots can also absorb water and this probably kept some of the roots "alive". All my catasetums will go into clay pots in March or sooner.....and I will start watering as per the experiment. ( unfortunately the experiment plants are in plastic pots ).
The way I look at this is that the sooner you get new growths, the longer the growing season and it is thus logical that the bulbs will be bigger. Time will tell. :twocents:

You can also look at this from the viewpoint that the watering - all taking place before new growths evident - stimulated new growth and maybe, just maybe conventional wisdom has it wrong. I was thinking that with big growers and greenhouses, and 1 or 2 growths per pot, and hundreds of pots, it would be difficult to water in 1 spot. The plants in this experiment are large and have 4.5.6 growths........and I can be careful with my watering.

The clay pots may contribute to the survival of some roots, but I repotted a Ctsm. tenebrosum yesterday, in a plastic pot, not watered since Thanksgiving, and it still had a few greenish roots too. They are really tough!

It's a common saying that you can ask 3 experts their opinion and get 4 answers. For years I believed that phals shouldn't be grown in pure sphag because of what I was told..... until I tried it and now 95% of my phals are in pure sphag because I now believe it's the best media in my conditions. Most people would vehemently disagree.
With catasetum's I am suggesting that there is an alternative that can work. I am also encouraging people to experiment as windowsill growers have unique, varied conditions ( easily adapted) compared to mass growers.
Caveat emptor.

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I shall follow this thread with great interest. I'm a great believer in experimentation.
Wrto phals, I always advise anyone new to the hobby to shun moss like the plague and stick to coarse bark, as for a beginner, moss can prove very dangerous.
If you have the nous, you can grow them in anything, but moss requires that bit more attention to detail and grasp of the subject that most beginners just don't have.

I can see my big phals stepping onto mounts this year after they have bloomed.

Actually nothing could be simpler with sphag. Only water when moss is 'crispy'. Always use room temp water and pour water through pot to wet moss thoroughly. And plant should be fairly tightly packed in the moss.
Do not use moss if your temps dip below 65f for an extended period. Phals hate cold moss. Try it !

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I find that hybrids are particularly flexible in their needs. Some plants are simply more rot suceptible than others. You have to watch. Cycnodes and Mormodes ancestry tends to make the off-spring more sensitive to watering, while Ctsm. with pileatum blood are very forgiving and often do not rest at all. Complex hybrids can be very individual, as they have not read the rule book.

As to roots, I hear all sorts of non-sense about them not growing if watered to soon. Not my experience. Rather rotting can be an issue. They still need to dry out, which is problematic in plastic pots (I use clay or baskets, and that on a windowsill) and, yes, some plants require a dry rest. You can't force most into growth and they are evolved for their environment, which cannot be ignore (just played with). I find roots may be active for well over the oft mentioned 8 months. Many are still active over a year in SOME plants, just not all. Again, watch and let the plant communicate. By the way, green roots are not necessarily actively growing, that is only the chloropyll reacting to the water. Look for a growing tip. Also, the roots do branch well, if required, and this appears to be a variable quality, presumedly genetic.

I, too, am a big fan of sphagnum. I've been growing orchids for some 50 years and there is still nothing like it. Certainly other medium work well and the cost of quality moss holds many back from experimenting with this long proven medium, but I would urge others to experiment with it. Osmunda is, also, interesting, but I have to grow my own! If you have palm wool, this can be interesting.

I applaud your spirit of experimenting and even Fred Clarke would appreciate what you are attempting. Think beyond the box. They is always more to understand and growing conditions vary. Report back, successes and failures, please.
Jamie V.

I have my phals on a waterfall stand, and the top pots are out of reach without a stepladder. I water them on auto pilot, 3 times a week in summer, once in winter.

I like moss, just not in a pot. Plus, the tighter the moss, the more you are dicing with rot. For me, the final thing would be that there is no way on earth I could budget to keep the greenhouse above 18C.

yep. The problem is your growing conditions, not the sphagnum itself ! For people who can meet the requirements of growing in sphag for phals, mainly min temps, then its ideal.

---------- Post added at 09:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------

Regelian - your point about every Catasetum hybrid/genus having their own requirements that may need your tweaking as a windowsill grower is valid. My pileatums are only now losing their leaves. I have a tabulare still in full leaf after a recent 2nd blooming. As windowsill growers, sure, listen to sage advice from the experts.... but also don't be scared to experiment too.

Interesting. I have never before had anyone explain that there was a min temp for phals in moss.

Thanks.

Update. I am keeping to the 1x per week watering.
A - 2 pseudobulbs, strong growth. 3rd pseudobulb little or no growth.
B - 1 pseudobulb growth growing well. 2nd growth in limbo.
I am going to repot A when I get the chance - only because there is no pot space for the 2 new pseudobulbs. ( I am curious to see the state of the old roots )

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The bulbs are plump and green. Guess the watering did them good too :)
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On same plant I have a seed pod that is going on for 4 months.
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Ok, I repotted because I received my radiata tubers in the mail and I had to do those.

I'm pleased with the results. There is a lot of healthy root growth - the entire root mass and media is moist. Most root growth, as is evident, in the area of the new growths. Unfortunately I removed many healthy roots when I cut off the back bulb to make space.
The experiment continues but it just goes to show that it pays to experiment!

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fb4e525fda.jpg

After repotting
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I guess it never hurts to try. They are looking quiet happy.

Looking good! I use a similar mix for my Cats. I add carbon (I have it at hand), as well as perlite, but I think the 'secret' is the bark to sphagnum base. You get air movement and retain enough moisture. Is that a time-relase fert. you top with? I've tried adding a handfull of 'Animalin' (dried dead things, essentially!) to the Cat. mix with great results.

cheers,
Jamie V.

I also applaud your "stepping outside the box". You are apparently having good results and I may try a couple. Please keep us posted.

Noticed today that the pod dehisced. I pollinated on 30 November 2016, so that makes about 3 1/2 months to mature/dehisce. ( the pod is visible in an earlier photo )
I don't know if there is any seed, I can't tell. The contents are a lot different to other pods I've had, no 'fluff'. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
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"A" shows typical rapid growth. The 3rd nubbin has done nothing. This growths are about 8in long now. I continue to water at least 1x per week.
"B" is also growing rapidly, although 1 nubbin is stalled.
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B

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fe429b7e15.jpg
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Conclusions
In MY conditions watering during dormancy kickstarted early and vigorous growth. Roots continued to grow inside and outside the pot - see photos to back that up. I'll update in a few months with pics, suffice to say that my expectations are high regarding growth and blooms.
I'm now going to try this with pileatums I have that are in full dormancy.

I'm also leaning towards the view that external roots have more to do with plant stabilisation purposes, than searching for moisture.
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B on the left ( later watering, but before roots were 3-4 inches long )
A shows phenomenal growth - a good start to a Chicago season. Only problem is that it's already taking up a lot of space.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...16e8e153c9.jpg

Roots B
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Roots A
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2121025617.jpg

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Still watering 1x per week, but over roots too.
That is a time-release formula I added. I still fertilise but not as regularly when they are outdoors and I think that the TR fertiliser makes up for that.

The ruler illustrates my problem. The growths are well over 12 inches long and the problem is getting enough sun to the plants as the weather is still too cold to place them outdoors. I'm not complaining, it's the best problem to have this early in the grow season.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...811e473fb2.jpg
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I've moved them outdoors during the day as temps have increased here.You can see the size - really lush leaves. That will soon change being exposed to wind, sun and rain.

( photo when tapatalk back ! )

Photo updates

These are a couple of backbulbs that I potted up and early watered when growths about 1/2 inch. They've been outdoors, rained on.

I took a look at my records. These bloomed last year late November after being outdoors all Summer.
This year the bulbs are already fattening up/maturing so it's going to be interesting to see when they spike. Is it the weather, as in cooler, that promotes spiking or does it happen after bulbs mature and that usually coincides with cooler weather? I sort of know the answer but will wait for confirmation. It would be great if these lost all their leaves by the time I have to bring them indoors.
I have 20 Catasetinae that will need space. All of these were watered prior to the "wait until roots are 3-5 inches" generally accepted rule.

I'm curious to see if you get another growth coming from this since its still relatively early in the growing season.

I have a couple that look fattened to the max starting a second growth. I've had it happen before as well. The second growth ends up going into dormancy early or not at all, and then leeches off the rest of the plant all winter. :(

Don't know what triggers flowering in Fdk. but I've never had one start a spike in the middle of summer. Always a new growth. It might have something to do with the clowesia grandparent, because I do have a Catamodes in low spike now, I think.

I've never had new growths initiate towards the end of the season, interesting. This year a pileatum started a new growth off of an immature bulb mid-season. I have always assumed spiking follows bulb maturity, we'll have to see.
My Millenium Magic had so many new growths that I propagated 8 new plants in total, from divisions and then backbulbs. A macroglossum is spiking earlier than usual. Last year I had 2 spikes in succession so this may be a candidate for a new growth.

Well the good news is that both plants are spiking. This is 2-3 months earlier than usual so a prime objective of this has been met, at least in my opinion. Hopefully this also means that dormancy will also occur earlier and I won't have space problems. These plants are huge.

Darn. Back to square 1 with photos. I'm unable to upload attachments.

Tapatalk back?

Nope, sorry

Figured out how to post photos again. Deleted the Tapatalk app.!

3 spikes developing. I counted over 20 buds on the one spike. That plant is massive....

Around 2 years late here with my post. But after seeing advice/recommendations about watering new root growths will kill the roots etc......... I just had to have a serious think about the validity of it ------- and I'm just thinking about what happens in nature..... or what could happen in nature.

This kind of experimenting --- ie. watering new roots --- is definitely welcome. And more results from other people investigating into this will also be very welcome - so that we can get to the bottom or root of this avoid-watering of new roots recommendation.

I'm thinking along the lines of what Ray says about air-circulation. As long as the water isn't allowed to stagnate in any particular section around a root, and new air can get to the water and flow over or around it, then things should be ok.

One way that I avoid water-logging and/or water stagnation is by having my bundle of spaghnum moss surrounded by scoria rock, and having big drainage holes in the pot, and using a drainage grate for water to leave the pot.

Obviously, catasetum are very successfully grown in 100% spaghnum in the whole pot --- but definitely need to control the amount of water put in for this case - otherwise it increases the chance of drowning.

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...1&d=1549592275

This is exactly why I dislike the posts that claim to water when it isn't necessary. People who aren't familiar with the group will extrapolate and start watering their Catasetums early. Why would you make your life harder and water a plant that doesn't need/want water? In nature they get dry conditions, hence their proclivity for dry conditions half the year.

It's true what you mentioned. The plants have pseudo-bulbs that stores water, and the orchids in nature can acquire water from moisture in the air.

It will be just handy to know whether or not it is ok to water new roots. Or if watering new roots is done - even if not needed (since the plant can't take up much water when there are hardly any roots on it) - then will there be conditions where the plant can get through totally unharmed and unscathed.

SouthPark- This was never answered for a reason.

isurus --- no definite answer yet. I think the 'reason' is not enough people seeing for themselves what will happen, and getting a chance to report on findings.