Catasetum new shoots
 

OK, I have a couple of Catasetums that were from far enough away to be out of synch with the seasons here. Altho it is winter here they are only half grown, and in addition some are starting a new shoot.

A couple of questions.

Should I stop watering? After all, when the new shoot normally arrives in Spring, I know not to water until it is a decent length.

Will that cause problems for the big shoot if if I stop watering it till the new shot grows some?

Finally, What does watering do to new shoots to damage them? Does it sit in the new leaf sheaths and encourage rot, or what?

I wouldn't water until the new roots - not the old roots - are around 10cm long each.

I have been dealing with the same thing over here. The plants came from South of the Equator and were starting growth in the Autumn. I treated them as any new growth and waited for roots to start watering. One actually bloomed, while the others just languished, as there is not enough light for them. I am very carefull with watering and hope to slow the growth enought that they will wait until March-April to really start going. So far, so good, but one or two habve aborted their new growth and gone into a rest period.

In short, you need to let the plants dictate what they need. Without active roots, they cannot take up water, so this no-water rule applies generally at this time of the year. Misting to prevent to much bulb dessication. From my current observations, some plants are going to essentially miss a growing season, while a few are actually going to squeeze another season in there. If there is a rule, then the plants don't know it and neither do I!

I agree with the above statements.

Bil- Remember that watering young roots in this group will cause them to stop growing. Wait until the roots are really, really long before you water. If you are not sure, then wait longer before applying water.

Now this is the sort of information I was looking for.

The watering kills the roots or just stops the roots growing?
How does that work please?

Just been having a poke around, most of them have decided that spring is on it's way.. and new buds and shoots are busting out of almost every one.

I'm not sure how it works, but your roots will stop growing if they're too small and touch water. I've done it more times than I care to mention!

You'll probably end up waiting for your first water in April or May if they're just starting to grow now. The roots need be 3-4 inches long at minimum, but the plant can handle much longer roots and bulbs will fatten back up once water is applied. Keep 'em dry!!

OK, thanks for that. That is just as weird as anything tho. Does anyone now how that works? Only the idea that water touching the roots will stop them growing is so counterintuitive.

Tell me. I can see that this all works easily enough when a dormant bulb pushes out a new spike, but with these, the bulbs are at the sort of state you would expect in summer, with well established, leafy bulbs.
Will keeping them dry for the next 2-3 months cause problems for these 'summer' pBulbs?

Also, another question please. Repotting Catasetum. Are they very sensitive to this, and need to be potted ONLY at a certain time, or are they more forgiving?

Here's an interesting point on watering that differs from what a lot of people say.

http://www.aos.org/AOS/media/Content...ries-Ctsm6.pdf

This also on why the leaves are key.

"Catasetums have plicate leaves that unfurl as they grow. Any small amount of water entering the whorled leaf will rot the new growth before the leaves can unfurl. Wait until the new growth is 4 or 5 inches tall. Only then is it safe for you to water your plant. "

Catasetum new shoots
 

Thanks for this thread.
My C. tenebrosum came to me from Columbia last summer and started to grow in November.

I started to water it when the roots where about 3cm long each.
It has five or six big fat buds ready to open and a new spike emerging out of the same new PB.

I grow it in pure sphagnum in a little net pot. I dunk it in water maybe every 5 days or so. No water from the top.

I still want to get this all straight in my head.

Now, I can see that there is a dammn goood reason not to get water into the leaves of a new shoot, as they are then hypersensitive to rotting.

Now the article I posted says
"But how much to water when the plants are leafless and at rest? Certainly less
than when they are undergoing rapid growth! It is important to note that those who
grow catasetums and cycnoches well do not withhold water entirely during the
plants' rest period. Of the growers polled for this article, all reduce their watering
frequency after flowering and leaf loss in the winter, not increasing it until new
growth appears and begins rapid expansion in the spring. One such grower waters
as infrequently as once per month during this period of rest (Krull and Smith,
1983), another states "We water when dry" (Lodyga, 1983), while a third emphasizes
"Never allow [the media] to completely dry out" (Riopelle, 1983), and yet a
fourth waters every five to eight days, noting that during a plant's rest period,
"Long dry spells where bulbs shrivel damage the plant's ability to come into vigorous
growth on the next cycle" (Soule, 1983). "

Now none of those says anything about leaving it completely dry,

"As discussed in last month's article, though catasetums and cycnoches often lack
leaves during their rest period, they do have both pseudobulbs and roots which require
some moisture to survive. Roots which dry out completely do not survive, and
for this reason some moisture should be present around the roots at all times. "

"Roots which dry out completely do not survive, and for this reason some moisture should be present
around the roots at all times. "

I haven't yet been able to find any info on water causing roots to stop growing. Since that's an interesting concept, if anyone has any data or references on that I would be very grateful.

Yikes! Terrible advice! That's a pretty old article. We now know that the old roots die and are replaced in spring by new ones. Being completely dry is fine and so is the fact that the old roots are no longer functional in the spring.

Follow this advice from Fred Clarke: Sunset Valley Orchids - Superior Hybrids for Orchid Enthusiasts

NO WATER DURING DORMANCY!! Especially for folks just starting out with this group. You can start fiddling with watering once you've gotten the basics mastered.

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

Here's a thread I started this spring: http://www.orchidboard.com/community...light=watering

The most shriveled plant in that thread is blooming on its third spike and putting out its fourth: Clowesia Grace Dunn

If you spritz developing roots even once, they are likely to stop growing completely. That will kill the developing growth. Depending on the size of last year's pseudobulbs, the plant will be able to push one or two more growths. But, if you water THOSE too early, the same thing will happen, and you will kill the plant.

These plants, in habitat, have a very long and completely dry season. They drop their leaves. In some areas of Mexico, where I have seen plants in this group, the dry season may be 8 months long. There is not even any dew whatsoever. They are completely dry for 8 months.

Fred Clarke, quoted above, says 90% of the previous years' roots die during the winter. They are there merely to hold the plants onto the trees, walls or fences where they grow.

They begin new root growth before the rainy season comes. They develop a huge root system in advance of any rain. Fred thinks this is so they can take in as much water as possible when the rain does come, because they will grow a series of very large leaves very rapidly. If they do not have a huge root system the new shoot will die.

Watering too early stops root growth. This will limit how much water the plant can take up. If the plant tries to make a standard-sized growth with inadequate roots, the developing shoot wilts and collapses. I have seen this happen to several people in our club who insisted on watering their plants too early.

At the time the article you quoted was written, these were considered extremely difficult plants to grow. They often died during the winter (because people watered them), or during the spring growing season (because people watered them too early.) As a result, people watered them inadequately in the summer, since they had a reputation of dying with too much water. Insufficient water during the summer will wilt and kill the shoot, also.

In the years after that, exactly as isurus79 wrote, we have learned how to grow them - no water, not even misting, until the roots are fully developed. Then huge quantities of water, fertilizer and light through the summer. Stop watering in fall, whenever leaves begin looking yellowish, and certainly stop completely by January 1 (or July 1 in the Southern Hemisphere.)

And - do not water the winter-bloomers in the winter while blooming! They evolved to grow this way.

Thanks for that, very helpful.

That is completely fascinating that water would do that to the roots.
You would think that water would encourage growth, wouldn't you?

So in short, better to risk stunting the half developing bulbs than risk killing the new shoots.

Bil - it's basically irrefutable that water anywhere near smallish new growth does cause rot or die-off. I have proved that myself. Interestingly though a new growth always initiated on the opposite side of the pseudobulb so all was not lost.
However I am not so certain that the entire plant should be kept dryish. Fortunately I can experiment as I have a few same-sized catasetum. So - in my conditions of around 50% humidity and 70f temperature - I did a little experiment. I normally unpot all my catasetum but this past Winter I left 2 in their pots.
One I have given about a 1/2 cup of water a week into the opposite side of the pot ( near the oldest bulbs ) and the other plant I have kept dry. The plant I watered has broken dormancy and has 3 new growths/spikes and I can see that the older roots have plumped up. A good result ! And something I have never seen or had before. So - going forward I am going to adopt this watering routine and leave my plants potted through Winter 2017 and repot when new growths and their roots are large enough.
The moral of this story is to experiment yourself if something doesn't make sense to you because you never know.....

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Yep, experimentation is often a great idea.

Orchidsarefun- I'm curious to see how your new roots will fare with this watering regimen. Please keep us informed throughout the growing season.

Interesting, thanks for that.

Your moral there is excellent. It's basically why I am asking all this. This is my first winter with catasetums, and the fact that they have half developed shoots, and new buds is very irritating, as either route presents risk.

Bil- This group is perfectly adapted to developing significant amount of new growth without any water present. There isn't any risk of stunting the half developed bulb because they are so efficient at soaking up the water when it finally comes. These guys really are amazing!

There was a reference on another thread, saying that the plants would stop all root growth as soon as watered.
That's interesting. I don't suppose you have links to any articles on this do you?

I'll soon be able to report back on whether watering impacts root growth. I checked again and the 3 growths I have do not currently have any signs of root nubbins ( well they won't if they are spikes ).
However I can say that the watering initiated these growths because
- both plants were fully dormant.
- both plants grown in identical conditions.
- the unwatered plant is still dormant.

Pity I don't have a 3rd plant to see what happens if watering is stopped after growth is initiated and only resumed when roots are at recommended length. :)

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What the heck. I'm going to start a 1x per week watering on the other plant that has been kept dry for the last 2 months.

To be clear - watering only in the area of the oldest pseudobulbs, NOT anywhere near the last season's growth. I think we can all agree that this is NOT the recommended route to take and should NOT be tried by anyone who is NOT prepared to lose their entire plant....:lol:

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Fishmom said on the other thread...
"Fred Clarke spoke at our orchid society meeting last month, and I am repeating what he said, more or less. I suspect he is simplifying for a mass audience, but he did say that the initial root growth is designed to "seek out" water and that when the roots find it, growth more-or-less stops.

I would bet that it just slows down, but what do I know? Only what I have observed in my own plants. They maintain green tips, so they may be growing slowly, but if Fred says "6 to 8" inches, it is good enough for me.

The suggestion is that these need to put out all the roots they need because they switch off after the rains come.
Would they really grow no more roots after watering? None at all?

I will start by stating that I only grow a few cycnoches and cycnodes. I water when growths are only a couple of inches tall and roots about the same. This is because temperatures and light levels early in the year are far lower at this latitude and it would be months before roots were 6" to 8" long. Roots develop with moist media, and I have not witnessed them stopping. This cycnodes was started as an old pseudobulb with no roots, so root growth was all from the new pseudobulb under the conditions I described above.

The initial root flush come out in the beginning and represents the largest root growth. When these are small and touch water, their tips turn brown and stop growing completely. I've noticed a few other small flushes of roots coming out in the late growing season but its usually only a few.

Just to clarify - this may be true for external, visible roots.
However, the "largest root growth" is definitely inside the pot and occurs season long and these roots, branching extensively, are growing in a moist environment.
So, experts say that you should never get the initial roots wet - when they are reaching towards the mix - as that stops growth and causes rot. The apparent contradiction is that this is evidently not the case when the roots are in the mix.
I think we all want a kick-start to the season. I would love my plants to exit dormancy early and perhaps bloom multiple times in one year. Maybe I should be careful in what I wish for as if my experiment works I may run out of space before the weather outdoors is warm enough to place them outdoors. However I would prefer them to enter dormancy earlier as its a real problem bringing fully grown plants indoors, space-wise and also because they are prone to spider mites in my indoor conditions.

Another root-related tip. So I started switching to clay pots because they offer more stability to the plants. What I noticed when unpotting most of my catasetums was that the root systems felt 'greener' than those in the plastic pots. By that I mean they weren't bone dry. Further it was a job ripping the roots off the sides and bottom of the clay pots. It appears that the clay pots offer sustained moisture to the roots as well as enable the media in the pots to dry more efficiently/quicker. The bonus is that the pseudobulb root system from the previous season already supports the plant once new growth establishes. By implication then if I don't repot every year I have plants that are stable in their respective pots.
Of course then you have to consider old media vs new media potential issues ........

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Damn, but this is interesting. It has just struck a memory. Now I have heard someone saying that you shouldn't harvest a Den nobile keiki until the roots are a certain length, and that's pretty well what I always do, and so far I have had no problems.
Now, a few months ago, I was experimenting with mounting Den phals on mounts, and I had the one plant whose keiki roots were lavish, and sure enough it has done well. The second while having a lot of roots, they were all very, very small, but I harvested it anyway because I was taking the whole cane onto the mount so what's the problem, right?
Wrong. It has sat there while its twin with the long roots put out roots like crazy, and since being moved, the roots have not grown a single millimeter, nor has it put out any more.

So, can we say that short roots exhibit this sensitivity to water for some crazy reason, but once they are safely 'underground' water ceases to be a problem, and they will grow as per normal?

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Interesting. So were you effectively keeping them damp in the dormant season? This isn't the first time that I have heard this concept of keeping the roots alive over the dormant season.
Anyone else got input on this?

I can't give input as i've just acquired my first catasetum last fall...

It's beginning to sprout a new growth right now and eventually, I hope, will start new roots. I think I'll follow along the lines of not watering till roots are a certain length... but along the same lines of questions toward what to do with old roots and media?

i visited Fred at his greenhouses last fall when i got this guy, and he grows almost all of his in moss, says it's the best material... but he's also mentioned people will completely cut off al the old roots off the pbs when dormant... although he didn't verify if he advocates that highly or not (he didn't say it was bad practice anyway)... so if you're "suppose" to take out all the old roots then i guess that means the old roots are basically dead anyway and aren't going to grow again? is there anyone that does that here?

Personally, i don't do well with sphag moss. it goes bad real quick so if I'm going to repot it I guess I'm going to have to do it soon, but to do that I'm going to have to wet the media... so not sure what to do with it, or when to do it....

so if anyone could give input to that as well, that would be appreciated-

I pot mine in a fine oncidium mix, with a little broken-up sphag mixed in for extra moisture retention. I do my repotting early in the new year (like starting now) as soon as I can see where the new p-bulbs are going to place themselves, but before any roots start. I just want to place the plant in the pot to the best advantage.

I don't clip off all the old roots, I use them to help hold the plant in place when I repot into the dry mix. If the mix sinks down a bit when I start watering, I can always add a little more.

Bil, interesting about the den keiki roots. I'm looking at a keiki right now wondering if I should pot it up. Maybe I'll wait a bit.

OK. When it comes to moss, I am very clear. I simply don't like moss in pots. You have to be so very careful when you water yada, yada, yada.
and yet. On mounts moss is great to give a water retaining pad. For Stans, moss in a shallow basket is the best. It dries out so fast that they really need watering every day in summer.
Looking at Catasetums, I started in fine bark, but I am noticing that fine bark is very prone to fungus buildup, except, oddly when it is really wet, ie Paphs and phrags.

So, to give the best option, and use moss, which seems to be recommended for catasetums, I use baskets like these with a mesh insert to hold the moss in. This way I am hoping that the moss won't rot. After all the moss with the Stans doesn't seem at all bad after 6 months.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

Well, with Den phals, my advice is this.

1. Wait until the roots are at least an inch long.
2. Harvest the entire cane.
3. Do not cut the keikis off, but mount or pot the whole cane.

Clay pots can absorb moisture too
 

ubada - No, I wasn't purposely keeping them damp. I subsequently found this article that says clay pots can also absorb moisture
What Is the Advantage of Growing a Plant in a Clay Pot? | Home Guides | SF Gate
and this confirms to me why there seemed to be viable roots in the clay pot plants and not the plastic pot plants, even though they were not watered. As I have about 50% humidity, the clay pots absorbed moisture from the air.

I am now experimenting with plastic pots ( which do not absorb moisture from the air ) by adding water 1x per week. See explanation above.

So maybe this is why my Mormodia kept aborting new roots last spring. I was constantly spraying them, hoping to spur them on! Oops!! Ok ok, no water until they are nice and long this year!! Wow!

I guess I should have clarified. The initial flush of roots is the largest root growth because those roots will branch and eventually become the largest root mass inside the pot.

Roots take water just fine once they get "long." You still have to slowly ramp up the watering until you get to the point where the media doesn't even dry out completely. Many South American growers pot these in plastic soda bottles with a permanent water well in the bottom.

A lot of people cut all the roots off each winter because they die anyway. I've never done that because it seems like unnecessary work.

I grow my Catasetinae in long fiber spag. This group is the easiest when it comes to media. They don't seem to care and will grow in bark, spag (which gets changed every other year), rotten wood, cow manure, osmunda, etc.

Would you please elaborate? Have any photos?

Many thanks for that info. Much appreciated.

---------- Post added at 06:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:20 AM ----------

One other question please.

If in full summer with maximum watering, and the pBulb going at full speed, what should you do if it starts to throw a small shoot?

Should you continue to water but just be careful not to wet the new shoot, or should you modify your watering?

When this happens I am careful not to get water in the crown of the new growth, but continue to water as if it wasn't there. It is a supplemental growth, if it does well, great, but the main focus is on the main growth.

---------- Post added at 05:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------

Ps. Great thread, great questions, great answers

Thanks for that info, and thanks to everyone that has contributed. Much appreciated!

Agreed! Seems like these later growths are often small, though I'm not sure why. Maybe their poor root growth bouncing off wet media is the problem.

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

I thought Ramon (aka Kavanaru) had posted a good PET thread but he may have sent it to me via PM. I'll try to find pics what I get home tonight.

Yes great info, thanks to all!

Here's a build guide for PET method on my one of my favorite Facebook groups: Catasetinae (Can), Cyrtopodiinae & related intergenerics Public Group | Facebook