We users hope to keep Orchid Board updated
 

I don't know much about the workings of Orchid Board, but I know a little about how software works. From most any Web browser it is possible to look at the underlying HTML code of the page you are viewing. Often the command is Ctrl-U.

When I do this on an Orchid Board page I see
meta name="generator" content="vBulletin 3.8.1"

Orchid Board runs on vBulletin software
vBulletin 5 Connect, The World's Leading Community Software
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBulletin

The current version of vBulletin is 5.0. Version 3.x is only receiving security patches, and we are behind in this:
https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/foru...hen-is-vb4-eol
"Wed 30th Sep '15, 11:00pm
Both vB3 and vB4 are still supported. There is no active development on either branch, however they are still updated with security fixes, and both have recently been updated for compatibility with the latest versions of php and MySQL.
The supported versions are 4.2.3 and 3.8.9. Anyone on earlier versions should upgrade to those."

At some point in the future support will be dropped for version 3.x. It is possible to upgrade from 3.8.7 to 5.0. We would need to upgrade from 3.8.1 to 3.8.7 before upgrading to 5.0:
vBulletin FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

However, we could still be current with security updates if we stayed with version 3.x and upgraded to version 3.8.9. It would require research to determine whether it would be better/cheaper to upgrade to 3.8.9 or switch to 5.0.

As far as I can tell by following tiny print at the bottoms of pages, Orchid Board uses plug-in software modules from DragonByte Tech
https://www.dragonbyte-tech.com/?utm...m_content=Lite

and perhaps also
http://www.drivethruonline.com/

We are hosted on Hivelocity
https://www.hivelocity.net/?utm_sour...%2BIain%2BKidd
I didn't try to contact them about Orchid Board speed issues; I'm sure they won't respond to anybody but their contracted customer.

This is all very good news; it means there is an upgrade path to be current, and all it would take would be money, time and the involvement of somebody who can be shown what to do.

***

Marty posted here in January 2014 that health issues were going to prevent him from being much involved with Orchid Board.

In September 2014 he posted that OB was migrated to a new server, and was now hosted by "...a company that specializes in forums and has their machines optimized for our purposes. We shouldn't have to deal with stuff like before." He also posted in this thread that the forum software would be upgraded soon:
http://www.orchidboard.com/community...tml#post704700
I don't see a later post stating that the forum software was updated. Does anybody know whether I missed it, and it did happen?

Marty introduced new moderator Pat (Silken) in October 2014. He mentioned that between family, health and MistKing he had too much to do:
http://www.orchidboard.com/community...moderator.html


Marty posted that updates to plugins were made April 20 2015:
http://www.orchidboard.com/community...tml#post747218

As far as I can tell that was his last post to Orchid Board.

Eventually, the software Orchid Board runs on will not be compatible with future-current operating systems, server software or browsers, and it will not work at all. So eventually upgrading will have to be done. This will depend on which version of vBulletin still works, and still works on our hosting site. But it seems like it would be best to upgrade to vBulletin 3.8.9 or 5 in the near future.

The bottom line is:
- Orchid Board could have our software brought up to date and functional for the indefinite future.

- It would take work and money to do the upgrade. Very likely a lot of coordination would be needed between an administrator, vBulletin and the hosting company.

- The cost of running Orchid Board may be a lot more than people think, or a lot less than I think. I don't know Canadian tax laws, but it is likely considered a normal business expense in the form of advertising, and MistKing has been willing to support the forum.

- Upgrading the software will cost some money as a one-time outlay. Then the cost going forward will probably be somewhat higher per month. I see vBulletin has options for lifetime licenses, rather than month-to-month or year-to-year.

- We could probably have a more responsive server. Buying a faster server would cost more money per month.

- Other discussion groups have folded because software became incompatible with new systems, and also because users were unwilling to commit enough money to upgrade.

- Somebody or a committee could investigate these things.

- But, to do so would require permission from Marty, which means contact with Marty.

- E-mail has not proved effective.

That is why I suggested somebody go to a reptile show and start talking.

Excellent research! Thank you.

Not so crazy about reptiles,...maybe turtles and lizards only! Amphibians more my speed..:)

If an upgrade doesn't happen, and this forum becomes obsolete and disappears, it would be a huge loss of information.

Unfortunately, it's not easy to archive stuff like this board. I'll try to explain why.

The content in Orchid Board consists mostly of individual posts, individual photos, and user ID information. There is also something called a cascading style sheet (CSS) that is information about what each page should look like.

The initial administrator (Marty) wrote or directed the writing of the CSS. This provides the "look" of Orchid Board, from the layout on the page, colors chosen, where the ads appear - everything you see on the page.

The information itself - individual posts, photos - isn't stored in any organized layout. Each individual piece of information is stored in a vast hopper full of individual information chunks in near-random order, tagged by the server with information showing its post date, the kind of information it is and the thread to which it was posted, if any. There is a table of contents the server can use to find each individual chunk of information when it needs them. If a human tried to read this hopper of posts, it would be a mess of posts in random order, and it would be impossible to make any sense of it. It would be like looking for the closest 25 pieces in a ten million piece jigsaw puzzle scattered in a huge warehouse.

The pages you see when you look at a thread or edit your user ID aren't sitting on a server waiting for you to request them. Every Web page you see is generated automatically by the vBulletin software when you request it. For example, when you click on a thread, the server software searches for all the posts tagged with that thread. It pulls up the cascading style sheet. It sorts the individual posts by date and time posted, and plugs them into the style sheet. Then it sends that to your browser. The common term is the page is "generated on the fly." It is done this way because a Web site stored this way takes up much less space on the server, and pages can be sent to the user much faster than the old-style static pages that were hard-coded.

For this reason something like Orchid Board can only be saved easily if you have a computer system that has vBulletin installed and running. There isn't anything you can save like a book with a series of pages in order.

It would be incredibly cumbersome, but a person could go back to the beginning of each forum in Orchid Board, pull up each thread, and save that thread to their own local disk. This would save all the text information. The thumbnails would be saved, too, but the big photos probably wouldn't be saved unless you saved them separately. And the threads would only be current as of the time you saved them; new posts wouldn't be there.

One problem saving pages manually like this is that there would be no index of all the threads, so it would be impossible to find things. There would be no search function. Another problem is the total number of pages is so great it would take a large to huge disk to store, and there is no way of knowing in advance how much space is needed to do this. The person paying for hosting knows how much space is being used by what exists now, but storing it as individual downloaded pages would take up very much more space.

There is software available that sucks up entire Web sites and stores them on disk. The person doing this would have the whole site, with all the links clickable. (The search function would not work, because that is done by the Orchid Board server software vBulletin.) An example of site vacuum software is wget. This uses a lot of bandwidth and can lead to trouble between the hosting service and the site owner. It can also use up all the bandwidth and prevent other users from accessing the site while the vacuuming is happening. Many Web sites have a line near the top preventing robots from doing this. This is the reason the Antec Slipper Talk forum is unavailable. archive.org didn't download it because the robots.txt file on slippertalk forbade it. The problem of disk space still exists when vacuuming sites.

So, it's a huge job to manually download all the pages from a forum like Orchid Board. It can be done automatically by somebody who knows how to use vacuuming software, but then it is only usable by that one person.

The only way to keep information like Orchid Board available is to continue upgrading existing technology, which means paying for it and keeping humans involved with running it.

It seems currently to be a business expense somebody is willing to pay, but that might change. It could be moved to another business, or to a non-profit organization if the current business owner agreed. But then other people would have to undertake funding and maintaining it.

I've been willing to pay for Orchid Board. If I put myself into Marty's position, it is much easier not to pull the plug on Orchid Board if other people are covering most or all the cost to keep it running, and it doesn't take much of my time.

We just missed this opportunity, which I see on the MistKing Facebook page:

MistKing.com by Jungle Hobbies Ltd.
January 6 at 7:53am ·
Be sure to visit MistKing at the Reptile Super Show in California this weekend !

I hella like this forum, so I'm up for doing whatever I can to keep this place running. I joined when I was 15, and probably still am the youngest regular contributor. I'm not necessarily tech savvy, but I don't have a pressing life and often check in on the forum multiple times a day.

The irony is I almost went to that reptile show! shucks...

Seems we have to
-get access into OB from Marty
-figure out costs to upgrade + monthly costs
-then pool for money or find a funder (a business interested in taking/sharing expenses)
-then figure out who wants to do the administration

I would first just talk to Marty. He owns it. If he's happy leaving things as they are there is more time.

E. Seca, you are a saint! Can I "Like" your posts multiple times each?

Anyway, as a total non-techie, I am only good for money, but I will be in for that. As I posted somewhere in the many threads on this topic, I find it disturbing to "donate" when I don't have any idea how the money is used. But I am more than willing to give if that is what is needed to keep the site going and there is some transparency about expenses.

I checked for reptile shows in my area, but there is nothing in the immediate future. Too bad we missed the one in SoCal.

Page loading bombed out twice trying to post this. Here's hoping third time's the charm...

Thanks for your efforts and explanation, estacion seca. There will be another Reptile Super Show in San Diego in July, though it is not yet clear if MistKing will be represented or if Marty would be there himself, and contact much sooner than that would be better.

I would find it much easier to contribute financial support if it were clear that upgrades and safeguards as you describe would be ongoing. I would probably be able to take a part in administration or moderation of the board under those circumstances too, if it was helpful. I feel like there is some urgency to this because I think OrchidBoard will die sooner rather than later without some intervention, but I don't know what I can do but cheer on your efforts for the moment.

I'm a Forum Supporter, in part because I just feel it's the right thing to do but also in part because I use this place and want it to remain. To that end, then, I'm in. At one time I considered withdrawing my financial support in protest of the issues here but realize that doing so would only hasten the OB's demise.

Whatever actions may be taken, it's then important to me that I contribute as I am able (which is quite modestly). I'm not a programmer and so can't help in that regard. What I see, regardless of how a fix should occur, is that there will be an expense involved. Here, then, is where I feel I may be able to take further part. If Marty is found and wants to remain in ownership but could use financial assistance to make needed fixes then I'd be happy to contribute. If Marty is found and wants out, he'll obviously want to sell his stake; perhaps we could form a small group and raise the money together. In one way or another there could be a relatively high financial amount involved to ensure the future of the OB and I certainly feel that this place is valuable enough to me that my financial contribution would gladly be provided.

Thanks, again, ES, for starting this. Your research is invaluable! I hope we can keep pursuing this, and move forward in a positive spirit!

I'm enjoying Orchid Board so much, and particularly appreciate the kindness and lack of snark. Sounds like the one person who got this started isn't real active with it any more, I'd hate to see it fall apart and disappear. As others have said--I'd be happy to make a financial contribution to getting it updated and keeping it going, :twocents:, but have no technical expertise. Please keep us posted!

Estación, I can't imagine how much time you've dedicated to get that info. That was a real detective work.:D
Thanks for taking the time to do it.

I also think this is too much important to be lost in such a way and without any effort from our side.
I really don't know how I can help. A few years ago I decide to take HTML lessons via e-mail (every day there was a new e-mail with a lesson and some examples.
I got carried away by it and decided to create site. Sooner, as I understood HTML was not enough to make it appealing the way I wanted to, so I've learned how to use things such as java scripts and all that kind of stuff.

It was fun and highly rewarding but, a few months later, it started to get thousands of visitors/month and when it reached a thousand/day I simply couldn't find enough time to maintain it.

So, I have some technical knowledge as well as an awareness of the time needed to keep it running.

I think it would be better to contact Marty and see what he has to say. Without it we simply can't do nothing.

Estacion seca, like many of the others, I don't have the technical skills to be helpful. I hope that once you know the work that needs to be done, and the costs involved, maybe I will be able to help.

I appreciate the effort you have made to determine what the technical challenges are, and what might need to be done in order to keep Orchidboard going!

We users hope to keep Orchid Board updated
 

Thank you very much for this thread estatión !
Must have been a lot of work.

I'm not participating as much as I used to . This was mostly because it got slower and slower via Tapatalk and often posts didn't upload.
I definitely don't want OB to disappear.
If I can help, I will

In this thread, which is taking a positive perspective to the issues here, I think we can all see that there is a lot of support for the OB. Let's keep the positive energy flowing!

I was also a forum supporter in the past, but as someone else said, not knowing where the money is going is a problem. I am not techy enough to even understand most of what ES says, but if a move goes forward I would renew my support.

I also think this estimate is likely quite low. Among other immediate problems with it, I see no fee or charge for the software. I don't know if the costs would run into the thousands, but I'm sure it'll be considerably more than this.

I am a Moderator on another vBulletin-based board (non-Orchid related). I'll ask the Owner there about the costs and see what we pay on that Board.

ES mentioned a VBulletin upgrade needed.
Here are the costs... or maybe not but it might be approximately the same.

Just to give us an idea.

That would be great info. Thanks, jkofferdahl.

Putting the cart before the horse
 

*sigh*


Thanks ES for work done.

I think you're kinda missing the point of this whole post. . .

There have been longstanding issues with the forum speed, which isn't a problem of ours in and of itself. But, as Estacion pointed out, in due time this forum will be wiped out due to the progression of technology if action is not taken. BECAUSE all digging has come up empty in regards to Marty's plans in regards to these issues, and there's no certainty if Marty is even interested or able to address these issues, the members of this forum who view it as an invaluable source of community and information are taking preemptive steps just in case we are hit with the worst possible scenario. If Marty shows up soon and everything is dealt with, great! If in a few months we find out he's seriously ill, et cetera, and is willing to hand over the helm of this forum, bam, we're already organised and prepared to do what it takes to keep this forum running.

This isn't some sort of mutiny. If anything, it's a grand show of appreciation and dedication that so many people are willing to do what is possible to keep this place going.

And that is why I think you'll find that we will try to do our best and prepare for a worst case scenario. If we never hear from Marty and this place vanishes, I will feel much better knowing I did what I could to prevent it.

I'm just going to post the course of action I posted already in this thread to recap:

Seems we have to
-get access into OB from Marty
-figure out costs to upgrade + monthly costs
-then pool for money or find a funder (a business interested in taking/sharing expenses)
-then figure out who wants to do the administration, how to have a funder or group-of-us in place for long term management


However, from my perspective, that would be plan B.


Plan A would be to Contact Marty and:

-tell him the value of keeping this up and running for orchid community at large and us
-ask him if he can upgrade ASAP, and if needed how current members can assist (i.e. funding)
-and ask how to assist in long term management of keeping this site up and running (i.e. how to get a program in place for fund raising from members if needed, etc.)

to emphasize, bottom line is the site needs to be upgraded ASAP and Marty has to agree to keep this going or transfer site to another person/group committed to keeping this going.

(And yes, ES, thanks so much for your efforts here!)

So seems like some of us have tried to contact him via this site and not heard back... but has anyone tried Facebook and email to mistking?

*sigh*

Maybe Marty doesn't use that email address anymore. What about contacting him at Mistking via Facebook message? Or call Mistking and get a physical address to which you can mail a certified letter to Marty.

Thank you

I posted on the Facebook page and sent Marty a PM also.

I've sadly also tried that route. After two weeks I'm still awaiting a reply. I think other means will be necessary to contact Marty, and my hope is that he is merely overrun with business and so unable to attend to the OB.

I have made contact. And I quote:

"
Hey Bud!
Seems to be working. Let me know if you're having trouble
Marty"

Well, at least we now know that he has not been following any of the previous discussions. Tindomul, you will have the pleasure of bringing him up to date, or maybe passing him off to estacion seca. Good luck.

I sent him a request via LinkedIn to contact me to discuss about OB.
Now he knows there's more than one person trying to solve these problems.:biggrin:
Let's see what he has to say.

Perhaps there was some maintenance tweak that had been neglected. I have to say the OB seems extremely fast tonight.

Tindo, did he say he did something? it really is much faster for me right now, wow

At the bottom of the Home or Forums pages is a list of who is online. Right now there are only ten of us. I haven't looked at this list during slow loading periods so I don't know what might happen then.

Working better for me too. I was just about to call it quits here.

At 10:53, there are 167 online. First try pretty slow to load, so I clicked out, but it worked the second try.

Guessing is fun. But let's wait for Marty's response.