Help with Phal disease
 

Hello everyone,

I am starting to worry about a few of my Phalaenopsis orchids... all my plants were doing fine until end of summer beginning of fall this year. I now have a phal bellina that has a bunch of white spots on all its leaves except the most recent one that is still growing. A Phal equestris that has yellow marks from the top of the leave and under its brownish and I have 2 hybrids that are showing some similar marking to the equestris but in a more advanced stage. All the affected plants have been in my collection for a year or more.

I guess now is a good time to mention I've been fighting spidermite for a few months....

Reading online and self diagnostic is starting to freak me out... is this the orchid fleck virus????

I've attached images.
The first one is the P Bellina. Notice the white spots.
2nd 3RD is equestris. Top of leaves has yellow spots, underside brown spots.
4th and 5th are a hybrid, notice the yellow spot near the crown...
6th and 7th another hybrid, this one has bad marks on top and bottom of leaves..

The spider mites are pretty much under control for now. Have many phals that do not show any marks at all, both species and hybrids. A few others just a small spot but nothing worrying. Paphs, oncidium, catasetum, draculas all seem untouched. It doesn't seem to be progressing anymore, however this all happened in about 2 months so I am still very concerned.

I went to my local nursery were the Bellina comes from. I noticed many of their phal species had similar issues to my bellina and equestris. I asked them about it. All those plants come from Ten Shin Orchids (and all my species collection comes from TSG as well).He claims to have spoken with Matt who says the white spots as you can see on my bellina be caused by high temperature fluctuations. This theory does work based on when it happenned and the bellina did suffer a drastic drop from high 20s to low 20s (Celsius) in october but I'm still doubtful especially with the markings on the other plants.

Any help is appreciated. Feel free to ask for better pictures angles details etc.

Where there are yellow spots on the top of the leaves are there white areas on the underside? That would be scale. The "gouged" areas (where it looks like you might be getting a fungal problem after the fact), I wonder about bush snails. If you suspect scale, clean the leaves well with soapy water, then spray with neem oil (with a little dish soap to emulsify it) ("leaf shine" works pretty well too) If you see tiny snails (they tend to show themselves when the pot is heavily flushed with water) repot. Sluggo or metaldehyde ("That's It", etc,) are only so-so in controlling them... removing the infested media is really necessary.

Thanks Roberta. I do not see any snails. I monitor my plants closely and I doubt snails would go unnoticed??... with my spidermite issue I've been watching closely many times a week and cleaning plants shelves pots etc religiously. Only pest I have is those mites and they're pretty much all gone... still have some larva poping out here and there but I eradicate right away. No more adults. I've had springtails in some pots but plants have been repoted since. Some fungus gnat this summer on some catasetums that I tend to overrated a bit, but no snails... anything else you can think of??

I don't know what is happening to your Phals but I do wish you luck in saving them. I lost a bunch of Phals to yellow spots that became pitted and spread over the leaves...I have never been certain exactly what caused it. It did not affect any of the other orchids, just every Phal. I do wonder if they might have been too close to the T5HO lights, too cold, or if I had a spidermite issue (though I never saw signs of spidermites).
I have two bellinas that I purchased last spring from the same vendor and I am hoping that these will fare better. They are getting a little less light and are kept warmer during the day. So far, the leaves have looked good. I certainly hope that whatever I had in the past wasn't a virus for these would have a high potential of also having it in that case.

If you recently repotted you probably don't have bush snails - but they are very small and difficult to see unless they happen to come out in the open when you're looking. They are less than 1/8" (2-3 mm) and dark in color, and hide out down in the medium. They eat just the cuticle of the leaf (leaving areas where the leaf looks scraped.), they are much too small to bite holes the way that their larger cousins do. (I know a long time orchid grower who claims that there are two kinds of people, those who have bush snails and those who need new glasses) When I have them they usually come in plants from someone else, since I mostly grow outside and don't get a lot of "cross-contamination" between plants. But in a greenhouse situation it's so easy for the little beasts to propagate and hide out...

Haha thanks Roberta I've got new glasses that give me 24/20 vision and I promise there is no snails :-)

I can see you are using moss. What else? Moss with bark?

OK, for what it's worth, Looking at those the marks do not shout 'snail!'' When mine have been hit with snails, the top surface is abraded away, and what I see here is the inner material of the leaf has collapsed, causing the top surface to be depressed.

This might be down to cold or something causing small amounts of localised damage. As always, watch it carefully to see if it changes.

Spider mites. Don't mess about controlling them, kill them. Kill them ALL.

By a miticide, and spray every damn plant. Seriously. If you don't, invariably an overlooked plant will get hit badly. I have a catasetum that was it badly and I didn't realise it fast enough, so I will get no flowers off that this year.

So the Equestris is in a cedar basket, mix of bark and sphagnum moss was transfered from a pot to the basket this summer. Same mix was used in the pot plus some sponge rock.

The 2 hybrids that show the heavier marks are in pur bark and only have moss in the top 3/4in or less. They were repoted 1 month ago while I was inspecting for issues when those spots got bad.

The bellina is mounted on a cork slab, only has moss. Been this way since last year.

---------- Post added at 07:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 AM ----------

I'm really hoping that it's just cold dammage. As for the spidermite... I'm doing my best. I don't have access to many products here in Canada. I live in Montreal and there is actually bylaws that prohibit most products... :s

I've used Safer's End All Miticide. It contains potassium salts of fatty acids 20% and Pyrethrins 0.2%. Is used at rate of 50 ML per 1 liter of water. They claim kills all stages including eggs. Clearly not true as they keep coming back. I've rinsed plants twice a week also with soapy water etc. I have very few individuals at this point. Takes me a while to spot one. But I still have a few and continue rinsing them away. I'd say I got 99% of them considering how bad it was. I could spot 100s of them crawling on the pots and shelves, leaves etc.

Anyone is familiar with this product or its ingredients and perhaps able to suggest something better I might be able to find in MTL Canada??

---------- Post added at 07:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------

Can cold dammage even cause those bruises is my next question!??

I recently lost my growing space to our newest baby. I had left those 2 hybrids in the windowsill and with the blinds fully closed at night I'm thinking they might suffered from cold humid nights, for a few weeks.. anywhere from maybe 10-12C at worst to 18-20C at best for night time and 22+During the day. Those hybrids were always I'm that windowsill, but never with blinds shut at night. With no air circulation or heating and our cold weather it could bring temps down low.

The bellina was well treated. No such drastic night drops in windowsills. It is also the one with different spots. Doesn't look chewed up. The leave is not collapsing, it's more just discoloration. It did get a drastic season change where temps went from high 20s to low 20s and does get a small drop in temps at night. Nothing drastic.

This does not look like mite damage as leaves would be pitted or have a silvery shine to them. Looks like it could be pseudomonas, one of the bacteria brown rots. How are you watering? Misting, watering from above or soaking pot in bucket of water? How long is the leaf surface staying wet? When are you watering, morning, afternoon? I ask these questions because, the more time that the leaf surface stays wet, the better chance of bacterial rots and fungal infections. Move infected plants aways from other plants as this spreads from splashing water. Water your plants by placeing pot/basket into bucket of room temp water up to crown of plant, keeping leaves as dry as possible. Water early in the day, this will give the leaves more time to dry. Do not water on cloudy, cool days. Increase air movement. You can use hydrogen peroxide or Physan, but don't think these are a cure all. Rots can move quickly, keep a close watch to make sure this does not move to crown or severe things can happen. If it continues to move toward the crown, remove infected area with a sterile sharp knife between the infection and the crown. These spots will stay and never turn back green, making leaf unsightly until the leaf drops. Good watering practices, better air movement will help avoid this in future. Hope this helps

Congratulations on the new baby!

Phals don't much like being cold.

Most of my Phals are mounted... so it's hard to soak the pot :p

I have good watering habits. Always in the early morning, room temp RO water, not in.direct sun, etc. I do mist the mounted plants, more the spag and aerial roots then the leaves... water splashing from one another is not really a problem except perhaps when I did the miticide... never have water sitting in crown, anyway that doesn't really happen with mounted phals... the potted hybrids that have the issue I soak the pot and never really mist the leaves... I might mist the top layer of spag between watering but that's all. I don't think my watering is the root cause. Can mites going from.one plant to.another transit the brown rot?

Thanks :-)

Some Phals actually enjoy cooler temps. I own a Phal Lindenii and it strives in my coolest windowsill in our harsh Canadian winters.
Yeah I know cold is not ideal for most phals, but my hybrids have normally handled really well the cooler windowsills and my species never really get cold, nothing under 20C at night... this year most of them show bruises of that nature. Some have just a spot or two nothing alarming. But some are really getting me worried and now seeing spots also on some of my species I'm getting really concerned.

So can cold actually cause bruises like this?? If this is Bacterial rot should I remove infected portions? What do I do??

cold water dripping on the leaves could cause cell collapse.

Keep in mind more experienced minds have already answered. My Phals are in a North facing greenhouse window. Some of them have pitting much worse than yours. They are now losing those lower leaves. The new growth looks fine. I also have some discoloration but the new growth is fine. All bloom reliably. My assessment is cold damage or physical damage. My window is over the kitchen sink. It is always humid and bright but even with two fans running it condenses. That cold condensation dripping on a leaf could cause spotting. My temps are 69 f during the day and probably 60 at night. I would monitor it.

Ok if the root cause of all this is cold dammage, I've already fixed that problem. All my plants are now on shelves away from any cold. My new issue will be providing sufficient light, which should be fixed with the LED system I'm currently installing them...

Any special attention needs to be givent to affected plants? If this is cold dammage, and I fix the temp issues, should this stop and not evolve any further, or can does spot keep getting bigger?

My spots did not get bigger but, I had many, and it involved the lowest leaves. Those leaves are now dying off. If I have learned anything from this Board, it is not to over react and be more patient. You may not have a problem at all. And, I do not mean this to be harsh or condescending. From experience only.

If it is cold damage, it is better to run them a little more on the dry side.

My thoughts, exactly.