New growing space - help needed!
 

Hello everyone,

I'm building my own growing space which consist of one aluminum bookshelf (3 shelves). I've also bought two computer fans. My thought is to wrap the shelves in see through plastic bags (yes, this is quite low budget) and install the fans, (perhaps a humidifier or two) and some lights in the space.
I've looked at some lights and I've done my research, but I'm still so confused. As far as I've understood 1 lumen = 1 lux per m2. The lights I'm thinking of buying (setup per shelf) is one 150W 2700K and one 250W 6500K - one shelf is about 0,36 m2. The 150W and 200W combined has an output of approximately 25.000 lumens which is 25.000 lux per m2, but since the space isn't 1 m2, the lux is way higher. Even if I round up to 0,5 m2 space the lux will be doubled to 50.000, which is about 4600 foot candles. That's a lot of light and enough for post orchids (and too much for some), as far as I know.
Are my calculations correct? Or am I missing something?
Also, I'm a little afraid of the heat these bulbs will put out. My space isn't big and the shelves are grid, so all the plants on the different shelves share the same air and temperature so the space in total will maybe have 2 - 3 of each bulb.

Does anyone have any experience with having a lot of watts in a very small space? And does it sound like this would be enough lumens or is it too much? I'm thinking of using tin foil as reflector.
The plants I have are 1 phal, 2 cymbidiums, 3 oncidiums, 2 dendrobiums and one miltoniopsis.

Looking forward to your advice and sorry for the messy post!

How big are the shelves...because most orchids you have there can grow pretty tall. Oncidiums can have a 3ft tall flower spike. :) If your dendrobiums are the phal type, additional to the 2ft+ cane, it would shoot out another 1ft to 2ft long flower spike as well.

What kind of light bulbs you are planning to get? I won't go by the wattage. Instead, look for the lumen rating.

Some of them are quite tall, which is also kind of an issue. I have a cymbidium that's 23.6 inches tall. One of the dendrobiums is 21.6 inches.
The shelves are 14.1 inches x 35.4 inches. I can change the distance between the shelves whenever I want and right now there's one space from shelf to shelf that's 27.5 inches, another that's 23.6 inches and the last one's 15.7 inches.

The bulbs are CFLs and come in 2700K and 6500K in both 150W and 250W. The 150W are about 9000 lumens and the 200W are about 15000 lumens.

Oh, and since the plants vary a lot in size, it's very different from plant to plant how far it is from the bulb.

Skip CFLs because there are better alternatives. Get these. I have 4 of them in my fixture, with a combined lumen of 6000. Under 6 inches, I am getting about under 3000 foot-candles. That should be enough for most orchids. It does not generate a lot of heat either. I can even touch it with my bare hands. They are also available in both 5000k and 2700k too.

Philips 100W Equivalent Daylight LED Light Bulb (2-Pack)-462002 - The Home Depot

Remember that when growing under light, you can compensate for light intensity with longer photo period. 15 hours to 16 hours photo period should be fine and you only need half of the light intensity.

I need way more than 6000 lumens. If one of my shelves got 6000 lux, which would be 12000 lux with my space, that'd only be 1000 FC, which at 16 hours would be 2000 FC. They get absolutely no light from the window and I have plants that require 3000 FC.
Also, I need something that I can hang horizontally, so preferably something that's longer. If it's vertical it takes up too much space and they start touching some of the plants.
One of my biggest problems are definitely space. This is the bulb I'm looking at: EnviroGro CFL Lamp 150 Watts White (Supercool)

I thought you are going to have light fixtures on each shelf??? I just don't see it work to have a single fixture for the entire shelves because...CFL light can not penetrate well as the distance to the light gets too far. They produce A LOT of heat...even with my 23w. You may try some t5 2ft or 4ft fixture (2 strips) on each shelf. With a t5 2 strip fixture, you can get about 4000 lumen (2ft) to 6000 lumen (4ft), per shelf. That's more than enough for most orchids, other than vanda.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

Also, lumen rating is only half of the issue. The other have is the actual intensity. With my 6000 lumen LED bulb fixture, I am getting close to 4000 foot-candles, with the distance under 6". Under a foot, I am getting close to 3000. That's A LOT of light for a 15 hours photo period. My dendrobium are lime green. My oncidium has yellow edges on the leaves. This indicates they are getting enough light.

I have a light meter to measure the actual light intensity.

I ran out of windows so I bought a wire shelf and, lately, another like it. The shelves can be adjusted (though I find it a pain to do so) and lights hook neatly under them with S-hooks to maximize the space. I have the one shelving unit covered with plastic and the other has plastic under to prevent damage. I line each shelf with thick plastic to protect the lights (cheap clear plastic tablecloth, cut) and I have lids from bins as trays. The lights and shelves were the big investment but I felt it was well worth it. I also have a two foot, two bulb sunblaze which does well for the low light plants. It is a good lamp but the others are better for hooking under the shelf. Good luck with your set up!

Here is the link for the wire shelf:

https://www.amazon.com/Alera-Complet...+wire+shelving

Here is a link for four foot lights:

https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Flu...+t5+grow+light


The two foot sunblaze:

https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Blaze-960...un+Blaze+T5-24

And here is an example of an S-hook:

Amazon.com: Gamecraft 3/8" Galvanized Large S-Hook: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Here is my 6000 lumen LED fixture. Ever since this morning, I trimmed off 2 inches off the top. This would enable me to get my fixture much closer to the plants. If I stick my light meter in there, it would read EV 14.5 at ISO 100. That's equvlient to 5000 foot candles. About 3000+ fc outside the box. And just under 2000 fc up to 2ft.

https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5612/3...aafb9b3a_h.jpgmygrowtentlight2 by vracing, on Flickr

Tetra73: I'm gonna have about two bulbs per shelf. One of each color. I don't get how your 6000 lumens get you 4000 FC - your space would have to be barely enough for one orchid. Sorry if I'm being annoying or dumb, but I just don't get it.
As I initially wrote, what I've understood is that 1 lumen = 1 lux per m2. 1100 lux per m2 is about 100 FC per m2. My orchids need between 1500 FC - 3000 FC so I'd need an output of 20000 lumens running for 16 hours a day to make them all more or less happy. Thanks for taking time to reply!

Leafmite: Your shelf is exactly the one I have minus the wheels! I've checked out your links and the lighting seems okay and they would fit in my space. I'd like to know exactly how many lumens they are. It only states that it's extremely high lumen output per watt. I guess I'm a little fastidious with the information.

I think you did your math wrong. I have a photography light meter here. These bulbs are rate 1500 lumen each. Totalling 6000 lumen..probably rated At the bulb level. And my light meter is giving me an exposure value of 14.5, almost 15 when I stick my light meter inside my light fixture. According to the chart here, Conversion Chart at 14.5 ev, that's roughly 5300 fc.

My light meter does not lie. My orchids don't lie to me either. I am just horrified that you are planning to stick 3 9000 lumen CFL bulbs on your orchids.

---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

Also, the lumen and wattage on t5 bulbs are pretty standard. You get more lumen and more wattage with a longer tube. A 4ft bulb would give you about 2700, 28w. 4 of them would give you 10000+ lumen.

What T5 lamps are available? | T5 Fluorescent Systems | Lighting Answers | NLPIP


That's just on paper until you actually measure the light output at a specific distance. The quality of the reflector plays a role too. Trust me, you can probably fire your orchids placing 4 t5 bulbs 4ft long less than 6" above the plants. :)

Haha, I'm sorry that I'm terrifying you! The reason I'm researching so much is because I don't wanna set fire to my orchids and I don't wanna waste money on stuff I don't need.
I might've done some math wrong. Something else that just occurred to me is that my plants wont be one foot from the surface of the bulb. More likely half a foot away, so I'm guessing that I can double the foot candles. If that's right then my plants definitely do not need 25000 lumens!
To be fair I don't quite get your calculations, but I think that a setup of 7500 lumen (which in my space would be 13.000 lux) at a half foot distance should be good enough. I guess it went wrong at the foot candles. Since we don't use that here, I was unaware that it has to do with distance, even though that sounds totally stupid now seeing that it has 'foot' in its name.
Does these calculations sound more right?

It's very hard to grow tall plants and short plants together under lights. Not many people manage to grow full-size Cymbidiums indoors under lights, and do it well.

I don't know anything about the measurements of lights but I did quite a bit of research and this is what seemed recommended for fluorescents. This type hooks snug against the shelf above so I don't waste room hanging them.. This is my third winter using them (I just put in new bulbs). All the orchids have been doing very well and this winter I am growing citrus, figs and some other plants under them, too. This is a picture I took just after moving everything in (excuse the clutter, please). I have since added a few other plants. :)

I really don't know what to tell you. I made the choice to use a particular light setup based on my past experiences blooming and reblooming my mini phals under 4 t8 4ft bulbs, in a small terrarium. That's roughly about 9000 lumen. But the tubes can degrade overtime and the rating is referring AT THE BULBS. As soon as the distance is beyond 6", the intensity would drop by greatly.

Is fortunate that I am a photographer in my second job. I have the tools. When I began to meter my 6 t8 tubes, 4ft long, I was only getting 1000 fc to 1500 fc within 6 inches to the bulbs. That would make sense why my mini phals were about to bloom for the 2 years I have them. Knowing these, I know I need twice the light for my oncidiuim and dendrobium. I wasn't basing my decision on some math.

I decided my a 4 LED bulbs fixture with 100w equivalent each. I did a light reading on it by placing the light meter in between the 4 bulbs. I am getting sun light intensity. :) EV is 15 or at iso 100, f16, 1/60s (those who knows about the sunny 16 rule in photography). Yes, with 6000 lumen.

BTW, initially, I was only using 2 LED bulbs in supplementing my 6 t8 bulbs. I was seeing good results and the oncidium pseudobulb tripled in size. My dendrbium was turning lime green and my cattleya leaves are turning a bit red and with robust growth...only within 1 month. So, I decided to add another 2 more bulbs.

I use what I use because of trials and errors and my budgets. Frankly, I won't pay more than $30 for a CFL bulb when I can get a t5 4ft long strip for $28 on ebay. :)

---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------


If you have a DSLR at home, you can measure your light intensity. Set your camera to fully manual. Set your ISO to 100. Set your shutter speed to 1/125s. Set the camera metering mode to spot metering. Point the camera to a middle grayish object, like a pot, or on the a leaf. Adjust your F stop, aperture, until the exposure needle is in the middle. If you need f16 to center the needle, you are getting sun light intensity. At f10, partial sunny. At f8, cloudy. At f5.6, really, really cloudy and overcast with a chance of rain.

Estación seca: Yes, it's quite difficult and they might die. I'm trying to put the tall ones with the tall and the short ones with the short, but that's only possible if they have the same requirements. I bought these very tall cymbidiums because they were super cheap and I've never had one before, so... I had to give it a go.

Leafmite: Looks like a cool setup! And great idea with the hooks. I'm really trying to work out something that takes up less space vertically. I'm thinking of buying some sort of bulb that's way longer than it's broad and then hang it horizontally even though it's not made for it.

Tetra73: Basing your decisions on earlier mistakes and experiences makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with light and an actual growing space. I've had orchids all my life pretty much, but I've never had shelves for them with fans and lights. I really want to make it as right as possible, cause I don't have a lot of money to re-do it.
Of course some things you only learn by doing and trying out different things over and over again! By the way, thanks for making me realize that I did not need 200W bulbs at all.

Have you considered something like this? Takes much less space than a shelf for the same pot qty, and it can handle tall plants.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...JL6zt8B8s0SItQ

You should make your decisions based on what people use and what they are growing. I would think that with a book shelf, you are better off with a t5 fixture (2 bulbs). T5HO maybe more light but they generate a lot of heat and isn't that energy efficient. I used to use a 39" T5HO fixture for my planted tank aquarium. The fixture is HOT.

This may interest you...it comes with a bulb too, although only 65k.

T5 HO Indoor Grow Light - 4 ft 1 Lamps DL8041 Fluorescent Hydroponic Fixture Veg | eBay

You can always try LED grow light if the whole red and blue colors do not bother you....:)

Rbarata: That is quite smart. I'm pretty happy with my shelf and I just bought it, but that way of storing them that's shown in the picture is probably more space sufficient. Maybe I can implement it somehow in my shelf.

Tetra73: That is what I'm trying to base it on, I've read tons of posts, etc. However I will definitely make my own mistakes too. I've looked into tube lights and they'd fit my space pretty great, but for some reason it's really hard to find tubes with high lumen, the right color and CRI and a fixture that matches in length and watts. When I say it's hard to find I mean on a Danish website. I've found some solutions on international websites, but the shipping costs a ton and I can't really afford it. I don't know why it's so hard to find... I'm kind of surprised myself, but it might have to do with the fact that my space is only about 35.4 inches wide.
The tube you've linked to looks great, but they don't ship to Denmark. I have looked myself on Ebay and Amazon and a ton of other places and for some reason new issues pops up with every solution I seem to find.
Your advice is much appreciated.

That's because with florescent bulbs, the wattages and lumen are set based on the length of the fixture. Is how it is. :) If I can and other can get Phals to bloom and rebloom under just t8 or t12 light fixtures, t5 or even t5ho fixtures should be enough for some medium light intensity orchids. If not, you can always add supplemental light or side lights.

If red and blue color lights are your thing, sure, try some LED grow light too...:)

Red and blue color is really not my thing. I'd rather it looks as natural as possible so I can view my plants and their awesome flowers!

Oh btw, what do you do about the humidity and ventilation? And how important would you say that ventilation and humidity is? Is one more important than the other?
Is it good enough for the same air to circulate in an enclosed space? Or do I need to bring in fresh air?
If I need the fresh air, the "old" and humid air will be transported out directly to my living room... Which I'm not sure would be the best idea.

I have run out of space myself and, from all the possibilities I tought about, this one seems the best. No screws, holes in the walls, etc, etc.
That's the same concept as the one used in tall buildings in over populated cities: more people per m^2.:D

Rbarata: Haha, true. Well... I'm not out of space yet, but I definitely see it happening. When I do, I might be going for something like that!

You need gas exchange from the outside to inside and inside to outside. As long as your enclosure isn't sealed but with gaps, you would be fine. You want to position your fans in a way that stale air inside is pushed out.

With my setup, the air flow flows from right top corner to the left lower corner and air being pushed out by the front. I have another fan by the left top left corner specifically blowing at my orchids in order to dry out the orchid medium, which is spagnum moss. The air moves in an oval, clockwise pattern. Humidity level never drops below 70%. I can get it to 100% with more misting and closing all the gaps. 100% humidity is also bad for orchids because bacteria and fungus and molds tend to thrive in these conditions. I try to keep it around 85%.

For the fans, I would use the 140mm computer case fan. Get the ones with the highest RPM with most CFM though. 1500 to 2000+ rpm fans are considered pretty strong with good air movement...however, they are loud. Generally, you find them in 120mm fan. With 140mm, not so much. Yeah, you have to find ways to connect them to an AC adapter with variable voltages so that you can regulate the speed of the fan.

Of course, you can use household fans but they are bulky and too powerful and it may reduce your humidity by a lot. You would definitely need some sorts of humidity water tray inside the enclosure to keep the humidity up. I don't use them because I have 2 large buckets of soil at the bottom of my tent. The moist soil keeps my humidity up.

Tetra73: Mmh. The fans I have are computer fans and they seem to be working quite well. I haven't determined yet if my growing space will be completely enclosed. What do you do with the humidity that gets out into your home?

That's nothing. Doubt that the humid environment in your enclosure would have any impact in your entire home or apartment.

Do you think it would work, if I made holes in the plastic walls in my enclosure that fits the fans? If I put one that sucks out air and one that sucks it in? It wont be a lot of air at all, but a little all the time.
I think you're right that the humidity wont do much to my apartment. How do you keep up the humidity when the air gets shifted all the time?

You can do that but you may want to add some filter pad on the fan since you are actively push air in. You should also have another fan inside to circulate the air. You want your plants to at least swaying a bit. It helps to dry out your media and to prevent molds. Your room temperature, as long as it is on the cool and comfortable rang, it won't impact your humidity. Only during a hot summer day you may notice that your humidity inside the enclosure is higher and can remain that way without much misting.

Okay, so I probably need one fan pushing air in and another pushing it out + one fan per shelf. It doesn't really get that hot here and I think the room temperature is around 70F all year.
Thanks for the advice!

I agree with Tetra73. I'm also using 100 watt equivalent LEDs I got via Amazon (Leson brand). I use a Y-adapter so I can put a 2700k and a 6400k bulb in each 10 1/2" reflector (Bayco SL-302B3 10-1/2-Inch Brooder Clamp Light with Porcelain Ceramic Socket). My light meter reads 1500 to 3500 footcandles within growing range of the fixture, say 12" to 4" from the lip of the reflector. Vastly brighter than the t8 tube fixtures they replace, for the same energy input, and more flexible as to placement of plants and lights.

Rockyfarm: Thanks for your input! I'm still searching the webs for great solutions. Your setup sounds great and I will definitely try to find a place where they sell it, so I can compare it with the other possible solutions I have.

Something I have though about but haven't looked into further would be to use a pre-molded fiberglass shower stall. There is a drain in the bottom and holes for plumbing hardware.

E. L. Mustee & Sons - DURASTALL® Shower Stalls

Estación seca: That is actually a quite cool idea. Never thought of that. Would be pretty funny to have a shower stall in the middle of my living room, but who cares. :) Perhaps I should've thought of that before I bought my rack!

They also make stalls intended to fit into the corner of a room. Most of your rooms probably have four corners.... :)

Yes, I saw that. And my room definitely have four corners. I can't find any pricing, though. I've looked around on the webs for the pricing of shower stalls in general and they're not cheap!

We can buy them through hardware stores. They are often special order items. I'm considering them because the cost of a shower stall is much less than the cost of a home-made enclosure leaking.

Why would it leak?
I'm trying to make my home-made greenhouse fairly cheap, since I don't have a lot of money. It's not done yet and I can only make an estimate on what it has cost me to this point, but I feel like a shower stall would be more expensive. Do you know what a shower stall cost on average-ish?

I don't know in Denmark. This is one in the US:
Durastall 32 in. x 32 in. x 75 in. Shower Stall with Standard Base in White 68 at The Home Depot - Mobile

Oh well, that is pretty cheap actually. I think that's about the amount of money I've spend so far on my rack, two fans, a little lighting (need more), some cables, etc. I could've really went for the idea if I hadn't already bought half the things I need, but it's certainly a cool idea! If you ever buy it and make a greenhouse of it, do tell! :)

For the plants you have I would not worry too much about the numbers and work on the hight and amount of time the light is on for. Cymbidiums might be hard to grow under lights they really are more of an outdoor orchid. I gave up on mine. I do still keep the other plants you keep under lights.

I grow under the Red and Blue LED lights they are great. Yes it looks weird but the plants seem to like it. Who am I to tell them what I like. My new growth is growing really well since under the red and blue LED. I also have an LED fixture that is daylight/white light. I only have about 3600 lumes per light fixture. My Beallara got some purple leaves from the red and light Led. That means that plant was getting the max light. My white LED light is 6500K.

Many orchids really do not need that much light. Adjusting the hight of the light will effect the amount of light intensity. Also the amount of time the light is on for. So you can get away with less if you know how to adjust things.

How far away will the plants be from the bulb?

I am just growing mine under lights for the 9 months the other 3 months they go outside. So my indoor grow space is not so closed in but I use reflective insulation that also helps add extra light.

Here is my set up.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...psn2n72j9o.jpg