Design Considerations? Cabinet, Fish Tank & Terrarium
 

So here's the thing, I like making things (keeps me off the streets) and have been dwelling over an idea for the past year or so.
Now that my health is on the up and my arm no longer shakes or twitches I am considering ploughing on with a combined fish tank stand with terrarium roof (or at least the design phase).

The base structure must be solid, the finish must be at the very least water resistant if not waterproof (have been looking at pond paints), and holes for cables and pipes must be appropriately placed.

For the terrarium top I am considering using polycarbonate, as this will be a lot lighter and more affordable than glass. The terrarium part will open from the front (including roof to get to the lights etc) so that I can still access the fish with relative ease. .

I have two tanks, a mid sized tropical 38.5H x 61L x 31.5D cm, and a larger cold/temperate 50H x 100L x 40D cm. I plan to use the same lighting just raise it up to the top of the entire structure, both lights were bought for aquarium plant and fish health (though depending how it goes may get more/different lighting).

The basic idea is a sturdy cabinet base with strong framing structures extending upwards to support the terrarium top but not placing any additional weight on the tanks themselves.

For the terrarium top I was considering making a square trough out of cut plastic piping and adding a bar to hang mounted orchids from. Mini orchids are what I am planning to go with should it get to that stage.

Now I have seen similar ideas in a book I can not locate at this time, and I have been trawling through the forum (alas searches for live fish produce far too many results) but I also think I need a little more specific guidance here.

I have seen much larger versions of what I have in mind, but nothing that exactly fits with what I have planned.

So, you fine and wonderful folks, I would like to pick some of your brains and ask if there's anything that comes to mind that you think I should be thinking about! Or has anyone else done such a conversion before? If so I would love to hear about it and/or see pictures!

Picture provided is a very basic starting point for the design, I will be doing my final design on graph paper.

This is a long term project (want to get the design right first) so will maybe get it started next year.

:bump:

Thanks for the bump Sonya. :)

As a continuation of considerations, what are people thoughts with regards to:
- Structural concerns?
- The best Aquarium Safe Sealant to use? Experiences, successes, failures, tips for use?
- The best paint/varnish for the wood parts of the structure?
Also
- Has anyone any experience with Pond Paint? If so which manufacturer would they recommend, and or what would be their concerns with an indoor project?

Currently leaning towards using treated pine for the main structure, as this is relatively affordable, suitably sturdy and easily accessible in a range of sizes for non-trade customers. So getting the right finishing product will be of great importance.
Other/better woods are much more pricey, and or seem to be only readily available through trade suppliers.

Definitely wanting to stick with polycarbonate for the terrarium top (sides). The lid, may also end up being made out of mostly polycarbonate rather than completely aluminium.

Any advice, comments, concerns will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.

By "treated pine", do you mean pressure treated? I wouldn't use that anywhere near an aquarium or a terrarium (or even near people, come to think of it...). Those chemicals are nasty.

Thanks Soobie, I agree that which chemicals are used can be cause for concern, and is why I am especially interested in finding a suitable finishing product (sealant, paint, varnish etc.) to both protect the wood and not cause any harm to the lifeforms. :)

Will probably pay a visit to the local aquarium & reptile shop over the summer and ask the gents there what they use. They often build their own enclosures, and I do know that the animals there are quite happy and healthy and the structures they have build certainly seem to stand the test of time.

I do not plan, even with appropriate finishes, to have the wood exposed to the moisture. So was also considering making the frame for the top part out of suitable plastic or aluminium. Again, the polycarbonate will be ideally sealed internally so that there is not gaps to allow the outer supportive frames to become exposed to the moisture. The doors would also have to be framed appropriately. The idea being that any condensation and moisture run of only ever touches the aquarium safe sealant, polycarbonate or glass.

Was researching some of the treated pine (which is pain staking) but did find reference to something called H5 treated pine which can be used in fresh water - so I am guessing that's for bridges etc over ponds and the like. Lower H numbers can not be used with fresh water, and the lower the number the less durable the wood seems to become. As for the exact science behind it, such as peered reviewed evidence etc, and to reduce concerns..... Still looking... Will need lots of coffee.

Ideally I would like to find a ready supply of White Oak (used in barrels), if I can find a good supplier that will not bankrupt me then I will certainly be changing my timber choice.

Again I could alter the design, so that the cabinet base is wood and the supportive structure are made of another material. But it would have to be the right material or constructed properly to support the weight of the terrarium. Was even debating using brick columns, bricks with the holes in so that a supportive pole can keep those structures extra stable (I have a mass of old bricks in the back yard waiting to be used for something).

Good thing I am patient and am not intending to build this before I can guarantee that it will not end up killing my watery minions. ;)

Hi Triffid,

Not sure exactly what you're trying to do, so I'm just going to ask questions to hopefully clarify your goals before I'd tackle your more particular questions...

-You want to have a setup where there is a certain level of water for fish? and above that an area where orchids will hang? From your drawing it looks like a cabinet where the midlevel are aquariums, and top shelf for terrariums, but in your writing maybe you're suggesting two aquariums set up where half of either is for fish and top half for orchids?

-When you say top part, not sure if you mean just a cover, or a housing for all the lighting and pipes?

-In regards to the structure, not sure how important it is what the wood and sealant is as long it is reasonable not toxic... reason being if you're working with existing tanks the structure won't be touching anything inside the tanks correct?... there are numerous cabinetry already built specifically for aquariums where the bottom area with open/close doors are for filers, hardware, pipes/etc and just made out of even particle board and a laminate on surface.

-If you're doing an aquarium part with fish you just have to make sure the load bearing frame is strong as water, of course, is super heavy, if water part is not much, you probably don't have to worry.

Not sure if you saw this but I think this is lovely... a post from last year of a setup with water and fish below and vivarium above

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...rium-750l.html

Understood, will try and answer them without confusing the issue further ;)

Two tanks, two separate set ups (eventually). Will not be combining the two tanks:

Tropical
Width: 61cm (24.02") x Height: 38.5cm (15.16") x Depth: 31.5cm (12.4")
Approx volume potential is 73,977.8 cubic centimetres or 74.0 litres, approximately 19.0 U.S. gallons.
Current approximate max water volume due to the lights is 55l

Temperate/Cold
Width: 100cm (39.37") x Height: 50cm (19.69") x Depth: 40cm (15.75")
Approx volume potential is 200,000.0 cubic centimetres or 200.0 litres, approximately 51.4 U.S. gallons.
Current approximate max water volume due to the lights is 150l

Raising the lights will provide the opportunity to increase the water volume, which can only prove beneficial to the fish. There's also currently a 140cm gap between the top of the Tropical Tank and the ceiling, and a 110cm gap with the Cold Tank. So much space that's just bugging me and needs to be used :)

Though I plan two separate enclosures, if the basic design is right it will be easy enough to calculate dimension and adjust where necessary for both. Will make one then the other, probably starting with the smaller.

From top of entire structure to base the sections will be:
~ Roof ~ For the lighting rig mainly, though also potentially put a ventilation systems in this section.
~ Top ~ Terrarium part, the extension to house the plants and a misting system if required.
~ Middle ~ The Aquarium part, with option to extend the design sideways and provide more terrarium space. Piping & cables will also be coming into play in this section.
~ Base ~ Cabinet, for both general storage and to potentially house/hide/protect other electronics such as the air pump, cables, switches etc.

The wood used is very important in some ways. I will be most likely constructing/cutting the pieces outdoors and may even store the parts in the shed whilst construction is underway. This means that choosing a wood that will not easily warp, and is resistant to insects and rot, will be preferable (it is a cold damp brick shed that also needs to be converted into something better). Certain wood is just better than others for certain projects, so I guess the main concern is simply not choosing the wrong type to begin with.

This link gives a hint at some of the woods available, potential benefits and downsides.
National Gardening Association

Personally I dislike chipboard with a passion, even though that is what most fish stands are made of (including the two currently being used, which do not have a good design when it comes to accounting for the tank accessories). The amount of cabinets I have seen with chips to the laminate exposing the board underneath (including the ones I have) just makes me want to avoid the laminated options even more. I tend to find pure woods a lot easier to work with over all (personally). Also find it a lot easier to repair paint and varnish work over the laminated stuff (though again that may just be me)!

You are correct in thinking that I have no plans to have any of the structure touching the insides of the tank(s).
A recommended durable long lasting and as you say “reasonably non-toxic” sealant is something I would like to get some recommendations on. “You get what you pay for” seems to be especially true when speaking about Adhesives and Sealants.

Cabinets can be bought to spec, though finding someone who will build it to my specifications is possible it will be pricey, if you want it to be quality and to last. As I have the capability/skill to build it myself, it will work out a heck of a lot cheaper to make it myself as I am hoping to invest in a table saw in the not too distant future. That will be an investment that will save me a lot of money in the long run, as other home repairs and improvements will be dealt with. It will also mean customisation to the space available (and potential troubleshooting) will be much easier.

“Measure twice, cut once” a motto of all good craftsmen.

This is one of my greater concerns, the load bearing of the Base Cabinet. It's why I am looking at pure woods for the base especially. Which is also why I want to be able to examine the wood before purchasing, regardless of which type is finally decided upon, that way I can examine the grade and quality upfront. Some places will even cut pieces down to size for a small or no charge, leaving me to worry about the joins, angles, construction and finish (though I still want a table saw).

As hinted earlier in this post, the water volume of the tanks could be increased by creating the structure.
Up to perhaps 70l for the small tropical tank and perhaps 190l - 195l for the larger cold tank.

They are relatively old tanks (but still in very good nick) where the lights in the original hoods were completely enclosed and the lights could not be easily replaced without affecting the integrity of the enclosed system. Thus I had to get a new hood for the small tank and convert the hood from the larger tank. Getting hold of the original design of hood(s) seems impossible and were apparently designs no longer produced/available in the UK (because of how difficult the lighting was to replace, according to the gents at the local aquarium). Now at least if the lighting fails it can be easily replaced, alas I then found I had to keep the water level lower than the tanks themselves can potentially handle.

Yes, I have watched it a few times now. It's Gorgeous! :) Was even thinking of adding the link as I started to read your post. It is also the main reason I am now considering expanding the structure's design horizontally as well as vertically. Perhaps ending up with the tank in one corner and having an L-shaped side for plants (being careful to have the lip of the tank higher than the sides where the plants may go, as seems to be the case in DavBis's set up).

Hope this has clarified some things :crossfing Please forgive me, I am not always great at explaining what's going on inside my brain. So please feel free to tell me off when I am being confusing or missing important details!

I have made plenty of things over my lifetime out of various materials, but this will be the first large scale project where lifeforms are involved. Thus I am not going to be all gun ho with this, where I can get away with just adjusting the build design as I go with other smaller personal projects, I believe this is one of those projects that really needs a good design before even purchasing the materials required. Learning anything from those with far more experience is always preferable.

Finally found that book and snapped a shot of the picture that set my brain going in the first place. Called a “Paludarium” apparently. Obviously what I am planning (in my head) to end up with is enclosed, and will eventually stylised to a Victorian/Steam Punk look. I just need to get the basic structural design down first (accounting for piping, electronics, structural integrity, lifeforms safety and so on), before I go on to worry about any cosmetic aspects.

Hey Triffid, I am a sculptor (bronze) and also Fiber Glass. I have considered these basic questions, and the potentially cheapest way that you can go is to waterproof a previously made cabinet. Waterproofing can be gone about in many ways. I call these, the heavy, and the light. These ways you can see on the internet in DYI programs. I suggest DYI fishkeeper Youtube. This person builds tanks out of glass and plexiglass, and he goes over the steps of how to do it. For fancy backgrounds, there are a lot of interesting "teachers" out there, and ideas. Air flow in terrariums will always be a problem.

Oh, especially watch YT videos about laminating fiberglass to the insides of wooden crates. DYI Fish keeper made a huge wooden tank for his arowana fish with plywood and fiberglass. I have seen up to 3000 gallon tanks made with plywood. I know this sounds like fish tank stuff, but really, a terrarium is actually a "fish tank" in a way, no matter what shape it is. People have been ultra-creative with orchids and interior landscapes. There is another (few) YT videos of a man in Denmark (I think) who turned his basement into a frog habitat with orchids included), A family somewhere in the US who actually have a giant waterfall with rock work built in their house (lots of orchids, bromiliads, and at the bottom a built in pond for fish).

Vivariums, ripariums, terrariums etc, can all be adapted to orchids.

Thanks for the tip Optimist! Very helpful to get a recommended Youtube user, saves me a lot of time plundering through the many varied producers of vids :)

https://www.youtube.com/user/diyfishkeepers

Will also search and keep an eye out for the others you mentioned! You've definitely helped refine the search perimeters there.

Thanks again!

LOL can you imagine what real estate agents think when they are called to sell an orchidist's / aquarist's / frogkeeper's house?

A good project to spend some time on!

A few thoughts:
Are the tanks framed? If they are, I'd say it complicates things a bit (when getting a waterproof seal along the top rim of the tank).

Glassy plastics like polycarbonate and acrylic don't do well with moisture: they expand on the wet side and flex.
For aquaria this is rarely an issue due to the thickness, but I don't think you'll want it that thick for a canopy.
I have 3 mm pmma for my vertical plantation, and it bends visibly when I water it. It's a 60x60 cm footprint and in five minutes it transforms from a flat piece to a parabolic wok pan: it's cracked in three places due to the tension.

A structure fitting on the outside of the tank will draw moisture by capillary action; it'll get stuck between the structure and the tank and either degrade the wood sealant or worse: degrade the cabinet.
This is critical if you go with a misting system.
(see image "leak.jpg")

For tanks this small, the weight of a thinner glass canopy (say 3-4 mm) is negligible; that'd be my choice.
Sides, backside and an upper front rim for stability
(image "canopy.jpg")
A top box of 4 mm plywood housing lights and a fan to fit on top of it should be no problem to make.

For glass-to-glass silicone sealant, check with your local pet store or aquarium society; they ought to know which brands are safe.

For wood sealant, check with the aquarium society, ask for the malawi tank builders what they use to seal their backgrounds with.
In Sweden the two-component epoxy varnish Epolan V is most popular (it's a floor varnish, actually), I'm not sure whether that's the type or a local brand though.

For the cabinet, go with 2x3" wood beams and a 20 mm marine plywood top. Remember to seal all edges with epoxy varnish!
This design will do for the smaller tank: aquariumstand134.jpg Photo by butacska | Photobucket
The longer tank might need a vertical beam like this:
http://www.aquariumlife.net/images/Day2.jpg

Adjustable feet might also be a good idea, in part to get the cabinet surface absolutely level, in part to make sure it doesn't skew diagonally.

Thank you so much for all the information! Have given me a few things to re-consider, and yes I shall not be rushing this project in any way.

The tanks have those plastic bases, and the smaller has a plastic top rim, but other than that they are unframed. Though it may be possible to carefully remove the top edge of the plastic…. Maybe!?

This is good information regarding the Polycarbonate and Acrylic, something I was not entirely aware of, and a little surprised at this as Polycarbonate is often used in greenhouses and even conservatories. Mind you was also reading that it has to be replaced every 5 years or so, which was making me question my choice of material. Now however, definitely considering not using Polycarbonate. Glass, like you mention, may indeed be the best option. If the cabinet is, as the tanks are now, in the corner of a room it would also mean that it would potentially only have to have glass on the 2 visible sides.

Good advice and a concern.

If you visit DavBis’s thread, likely you have already. http://www.orchidboard.com/community...rium-750l.html
This is more how my mind was starting to wander with the design, so the tanks would end up being open topped within the entire structure. Two sides visible, two sides not.

Was thinking of making it wider on two sides (L shaped), this in turn means the need for proper drainage system including taps is also in consideration. Creating a system that prevents too much excess (or stops any) water getting to where it may cause problems, and keeping the moisture in the places where I want it to remain. May need to create a lip, or small guttering system, around sides of the tanks to address this concern.

But as you mention, protecting any wood used from soaking up moisture, warping, rotting etc., is something I really need to get right in the first place.

I know that Acrylic paint once dry is pretty much water-proof. A paint stained pair of craft trousers has been through over 10 years worth of washes with the paint streaks remaining unabated has proven that to me! Though I can be pretty certain that it will be flexible but not crack like thicker sheets of Acrylic & Polycarbonate glazing, I do not know with certainty how well it would stand up to this type of environment on a continual basis. Considering experimenting with small pieces of plywood covered in acrylic paint (as well other protective substances) and placing them directly in water over time – this excessive exposure may be a good way for me to compare options and as this is not planned for this year will certainly provide plenty of time to test various products.

I have even been pricing and researching up on Aluminium sheet materials, which if nothing else may provide a flexible enough material to work with, which can be placed on the top of the base cabinet. It does however produce a new set of considerations regarding final construction, Aluminium Corrosion Resistance - Aluminium Design

One of the aspects of the design I am also considering is the ability to dismantle and reassemble the sections (at least partially). Would mean all sections would have to fit exactly, protection of susceptible materials paramount, but would also allow for replacement of parts rather than a full reconstruction potentially a viable option. Rubber seals would then have to be considered though. So if one section of it starts to fail, I would not necessarily have to replace the whole structure. The base cabinet however would remain solid in design & build, as it would be the foundation for the rest of the structure. If I go with this option however, it brings up other designs aspects to consider and I will have to make sure that I do not lose the final plans.

It may sound weird but it's in my head (terrible place), please excuse the ramble.

Thanks for the tip. Can’t seem to find this product in the UK, so may be a brand only found elsewhere. But there should be equivalent products available here. Will just have to do some digging, was even looking at Yacht Varnish for the base cabinet, so may just have to revisit that avenue of investigation also.

Yes, I will be heading to the local Aquarium & Reptile store for a good chat with the owners, as well as doing more checking up on the various aquarium societies and forums before I finalise any aspect of this project. “Seal all edges with epoxy varnish!” Got it, will do! ;)

Good advice, the floor it will be on is solid concrete but not certain that it is entirely level. Don’t want to end up with something that resembles the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

Thank you so much again for all your comments, advice, images and links.
A lot to consider and plan around, but it keeps me from terrorizing the neighbourhood at least! :)

Did a bit of digging between replies: PC is less prone to warping due to humidity than PMMA, but as you say; moot point. The light will age and degrade any plastic anyway.

You can very likely remove the whole rim if it's plastic; it's only for aesthetic purposes (and keeping the glass cover in place); no structural use.

With all things included; building a sturdy cabinet, lighting boxes, misting systems and raised canopies for plants and all... should you really be clinging on to old tanks?
I know it's a few quid more to go all new, but since we're not talking humongous custom tanks here, going all new sounds far more appealing to me.
No seams or joints to conceal, no scratches or old lime aggregations to mar the view..

I'd avoid single-component acrylic paints on any surface that has direct or common contact with the water or the plants unless I have a full list of components, degradation estimates and proof that they're not leaking toxins into the water.
The lower cabinet sections could manage with yacht varnish or similar heavy duty laqueur, but other than that; epoxy.
If it's good enough for malawi and marine aquarists, it's good enough for orchids.

Do please elaborate on the dismantling idea; I'm curoius about it.

A few inspirational links:
Ryan Benzie Vivarium
https://www.flickr.com/photos/297418...7623031340089/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/297418...7623154473638/
http://www.fotografiewimvanvelzen.nl...-004-007gr.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...41efba5037.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7429/1...2342de5b_b.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2hnbhsb2Ao

Awesome! Just in time for lunch break too!

Good to know!

I have four tanks in total and spent… wait for it… a grand total of £45 for all of them including original cabinets of the two in questions.

One is my quarantine tank for if any fish get sick so is currently in storage, a gift from Hubby’s work colleague who didn’t want it any more. The smallest is now home to my Neo falcata costing £15 new and was the original quarantine tank.
Of the tanks being talked about previously, the smaller one was £30 second hand, and the large one was free because previous owners were talking about just chucking it away.
All of them in such good nick, that it seems rather wasteful to me to purchase more. No scratches, none that I could see any way. They may be old but there is honestly nothing wrong with them.

And with final decorative aspect heading towards Steam-punk Victorian, using these tanks should not detract from the overall final look. But structural design is of course where I should and will begin, “Function over fashion”.

I know and understand what you’re saying though and it may be the best option in the long run depending on final designs. Would also mean more tanks to convert in to straight forward terrariums... But I think Hubby may have a fit if I talk about making or buying more fish tanks at this point in time.

Don’t worry, wont be using acrylic in areas exposed to life etc. But was thinking about it as an overall protection more for the Base Cabinet. Sorry should have specified more accurately. But Yacht varnish is now looking like a favourite for the cabinet part!...
Epoxy! Got it! ;) :lol: sorry, reminding me crafty friends when they speak of evo-stick.

Think giant 3D jigsaw, but not so many pieces.

Certain pieces of furniture can be dismantled and reassembled, but there will be key piece(s) that once placed holds the structure together, sometimes this can be as simple as a pin or bolt. If you think about certain methods in carpentry, similar to Dove-tail and other interlocking pieces you may get an idea of where my head was at when thinking about it. Overall think of the base cabinet, structure around fish tank, terrarium upper section and roof rig being the four main pieces of the puzzle. Would likely mean having to use more rubber seals and the like, as well as appropriate sealants where needed, but it may just be a viable design consideration.

You can often get shelves and side units that can be added to because the structure usually has holes which another unit can be placed on top of – depending on quality these structures can either be very weak or indeed extremely strong. Now I am not talking about using these type of shelves or of adding to the structure in the future, but I hope you get the idea.

Now going to enjoy a cup of tea and the links you’ve shared. :)