Epiweb and Beneficial Microbes?
 

Hi,

As mentioned in another post I grow a number of Dendrobium in clay pots with Epiweb substrate. Recently, during repotting I noticed that two of my plants are showing signs of root rot, nothing too worrying at the moment, but I want to get on top of it as quickly as possible. I'm considering using a biological control, Trichoderma and a bacterial inoculate of some description, but am uncertain as to how effective these would be in Epiweb. I tend to grow my Dendrobiums on the dry side, and although I'm watering every 4-5 days in the summer heat, it's usually only once a week, or every 10-14 days during the winter rest. Would this be too dry to allow microbial products to work effectively? Can microbes survive long term in Epiweb? Does anyone have any experience using products like these in conjunction with Epiweb?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Kindest regards,
Alex

Hi Alex.

I have a few plants in EcoWeb cubes, and use Inocucor Garden Solution regularly.

There are three "locations" that can be colonized by the microorganisms:

• The medium itself,
• the "bioplaque" that forms on media surfaces, and
• within the plants.

In the case of recycled PETE material like this, the medium does not support the cultures the way that natural organic materials do - the critters consume carbon to survive, extracted by their metabolites, and those are ineffective on most polymers.

They can populate the bioplaque, but the polymers tend not to develop much of one. The fact that you grow "dry" also does not favor that.

The microorganisms can establish colonies within the plants themselves though, so still offer benefits.

Thank you for the reply.

In addition to the Trichoderma, I was considering Microbe Life's Photosynthesis Plus and also their Nourish-L product, which contains both carbon and lignins as a microbial food source. There website seems to be primarily "buzz-word" based marketing hype as opposed to detailed, specific information but the products seem to be well liked on a number of cannabis growers forums and as a lot of those guys are cash croppers I tend to assume they take the quality of their products seriously.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the stoners tend to get the best products?

Kindest regards,
Alex

The profit motive leaves little room for anything other than concrete results.

The fact the "stoners" have "great" products doesn't hide they get high marketing doses too… And Trichoderma is one of the few we *know* can be beneficial for 'chids, others may just be squatters… There's studies on orchid bacterial/fungi fauna.

This said, I'm always for experiments, as long we have a group of plants left without the tested product to see differences.

There has been quite a lot of controlled study done on all sorts of microorganisms, but very little on orchids, and very little published about cannabis.

Inocucor Garden Solution, which contains fungi other than trichoderma and a multitude of bacteria species, has been proven out with fruit and vegetable crops (strawberries, broccoli, Swiss chard, eggplant), where it showed 30%-40% increased yields, and ornamentals (hyacinths) which grew and bloomed faster compared to controls.

The stuff is marketed as a "plant probiotic", but is actually a great preventive & curative, too.

We typically plant New Guinea impatiens in our front flower beds, and they usually soon succumb to a fungal attack in our rainy weather, setting them back and requiring the replacement of a few. This year, I sprayed them with a 1% solution at the time of planting, and we have not seen any attack at all.

On the curative front, I had a pricey phalaenopsis mericlone contract an erwinia infection, so I sprayed it daily for a week with a 2% solution. The infection stopped immediately, and the plant recovered nicely.

Thank you for the replies.


Inocucor would have been my first choice as I know it's actually being used with orchids, but unfortunately it isn't readily available in the UK, whereas the Microbe Life products are. As mentioned previously, I did find their website, where they say a lot about the products without actually saying anything at all, kind of off putting; but in the absence of any concrete test data I'm relying on the anecdotal reports of our smoked out friends. I did contact Microbe Life to ask if they could offer any advice or information concerning their products suitability for use with orchids, but they must not know themselves, as I never heard back from them.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Alex, I think Trichoderma are endophytic. So it means that the roots get infected by them (and the fungi lives inside of the roots). There are studies which shows that Trichoderma are extracted from root tissues (e.g T. viride from Cymbidium hybrid). But there are several species of Trichoderma, and some of them may not provide the protection. Also different strains have different protection effects. So I'm not completely sure if T. harzianum works well with orchids. But I have been occasionally using RootShield. It's a bit expensive, so I need to try home-brew this.

With effective microbes, I think EM-1 is probably in the UK. I'm doing side-by-side comparison (EM-1 vs no EM-1), but I"m not seeing much effect so far.

Naoki: gotta say, I just love those half-nerdy (as in a compliment) answers you give- I like the way you think, and the way you are able to simplify advanced processes in a way that makes it easy for most people to understand😊
Lol, but on topic- I have used root shield aswell- but have to order online. I dont care about the price, as you can see on my plants, the roots obviously loves it😎 (wish it didnt was that expensive though…)

So I'm interested in options- if any have tried other things that helps keep roots healthy? Home-brew sounds like fun😎

Once again thank you for the replies.
The Trichoderma product that I opted for contains 4 species: Trichoderma harzianum, T. koningii, T. polysporum and T. viride There are a couple of websites that discuss T. harzianum in relation to orchids, but again it's anecdotal and not backed up by test results. No idea if any of the other species will be of any benefit.

Alas, despite continually complaining about a lack of methodically sound testing instead of anecdotal evidence, I won't be able to offer anything more myself as I don't have multiple types of the same plant; all of my Dendros are individuals (not that I anthropomorphise my orchids or anything :rofl:), so I won't be able to set up control groups.


Kindest regards,
Alex

Thanks for this thread Alex.

I recently potted two Dendrobium in epiweb cubes in clear plastic pots.
They dry out very quickly.
When I water them in the morning, they are dry in the evening (at least there is no more condensation to see at the inside of the clear pot)
I chose that medium because the plants are outside and I don't want them being too wet when it rains for a couple of days.

So I wonder why the roots of your plants rot if it's not wetness ...?

I have this unfortunate tendency to pick up really battered, unhealthy looking orchids from garden centres out of pity. All of the Dendrobiums I'm growing in Epiweb are garden centre rescues so they probably had the rot when I got them. I've always been nervous about dividing plants in Epiweb for fear of damaging the roots, usually I just move them into a bigger pot, without disturbing the roots at all, but recently they've gotten too big for the location I have them in so I've had no choice but to divide which is how I discovered the rot in the first place. It certainly isn't very severe, and as you say I think it is very unlikely to have started in the Epiweb because it is so free draining, so probably just something I missed when I got them to begin with.

Kindest regards,
Alex

I have used and use; Root Excelurator, Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantula and Great White. Of all the best for my plants is Root Excelurator and Great White none gave me problems.

I get a lot of my orchid and aquatic plant info from them. The experts on growing plants in a basement or under lights?

--stoners---

Hi Alex, just wondering which product you bought that had all of those strains in it, and if you found a difference or would recommend it? Please lmk your results, thank you in advance!

Ups! I forgot to mention; Root Excelurator, Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantula and Great White
are beneficial microbes and fungi.
Root Excelurator - House and Garden
Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantula - Advanced Nutrients
Great White Premium Mycorrhizae - Plant Success

Using multiple species of microorganisms is preferred, as each one excretes specific metabolites that have different effects on the local environment. However, part of the issue with the use of multiple formulas of microorganisms is that the various species may compete with each other, rendering some of them ineffective.

Commercial mycorrhizal products tend to be of little value to orchids, as the fungal-orchid associations are quite specific, and those species are not typically found in products for sale.

Hi, Anastasia
The product I chose is produced by a British firm, The Nutrient Company. I got the liquid inoculate, but they also do a powdered version https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/p...y/trichoderma/. I don't know if they ship outside of Europe though. The same species of Trichoderma , along with a number of bacterial strains, are also found in this product GrowBigger which is available in the US. The rot was only recently uncovered, and the TNC Tricorr arrived in this morning's post, so I haven't had a chance to use it yet. I will be happy to provide any information I can about it's benefits, assuming there are any, if people are interested. However, as mentioned, since I don't have any control plants it won't be a truly worthwhile experiment.

Kindest regards,
Alex

---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

Coupe of questions for Ray and Nexogen, if you don't mind.

Ray, in an earlier post you mentioned that Inocucor contained fungi other than Trichoderma, are these species known to be beneficial for orchids? Is there anything in the results you see with Inocucor that you can attribute specifically to the fungi?

Nexogen you mentioned AN's Piranha and Great White Premium Mycorrhizae. I don't have any in depth knowledge of the subject, but have done some reading so I have a layman's grasp (fingers crossed) and I understood that Orchid Mycorrhizae formed their own group and showed a very high level of host specificity. Furthermore I believe that these same fungi can be highly pathogenic to other commercial crops, so I have always thought that commercial fungal inoculates, excepting Trichoderma, were of limited use with orchids. That being said I have read some posts on various forums from members who have been using mycorrhizal on terrestrials with some success. Are you using these products on terrestrials? I only grow epiphytes myself, and a few lithophytic species, and wondered if you had tried these same products with epiphytes and had had any obvious success with them.

Apologies for the barrage of text and endless questions.
Thank you in advance for any information you can provide.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Alex, you are in the right track about orchid mycorrhizae. Although it is not as well-studied as other mycorrhizae, as Ray said, most of the commercial products doesn't contain relevant fungi (as far as I looked around). I believe that there is (or was) a product in Japan (and/or Korea) which is targeted for orchids. I believe it was extracted from Cymbidium, and benefits were observed in some controlled experiment, but I can't remember the details.

Except Root Excelurator, which I guess is based on a microorganism producing auxin rest (Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantula and Great White) I have not seen any increase or decrease intake in plants. Perhaps some microorganism has an invigorating contribution. Anyway (knock in the wood) I have not had any negative effect.
-----------
Honestly (of all the poop in hydroponics); I had great success (it is by far the best) with Liquid Karma from Botanicare.

Thank you so much Alex! I hope your den. recovers quickly, many thanks again :)

As I said earlier, there has been very little study about the interplay of specific species with orchids, but in this case, there's lots of anecdotal evidence that the Inocucor product is effective.

It has several stable consortia of microorganisms making up about 18 different "critters" in it. I have no idea how you'd tell which one did what, but by using such a stable, multi-specific solution, I suppose it's sort-of a "shotgun approach".

Trichoderma harzianum is maybe the only one with a little background and known to be benefical anecdotally to multiple genus of orchids.

My only reference where I am is the Benzing book (vascular epyphytes) and there's little information in it (state of things in 1993). It doesn't even list Trichoderma. There's more for bromelacea microflora but it's not the same species of associations seemingly.

So, I inoculated all of my Epiweb Dendrobiums yesterday, and have decided to increase my watering to every 3 days in the hopes of helping the Trichoderma become established, luckily you can't really over-water with Epiweb.

It's not just ailing Dendrobiums I rescue from garden centres, I also have a collection of Phalaenopsis in various stages of recovery and these have been inoculated too, although these are potted in Pinus merkusii bark, not Epiweb. However, this bark seems to dry out quicker than the Epiweb, so the Trichoderma may still have a difficult time getting a foothold in the media.

There was a large mycellial mass in the bottle when I opened it, so at the very least I know there's fungi in there, the real question is whether this will be of any benefit to the orchids. I know that people who home-brew trichoderma cultivate it on corn flour where it manifests as a fluffy white mold, can anyone who has used it on orchids tell me whether or not it is actually visible on the growing media as well?


Kindest regards,
Alex

Friend, it is quite difficult (science vs. money) to find out anything concrete. I guess the solution you use is not only Trichoderma. Internet looking for mycorrhizal, benefits bacteria, etc.
I suppose you have to use carbohydrates (Molasses, etc) to feed microorganisms ...
Merkusii Pinus bark is probably good for fungus and bacteria feast.

PS: However, if you want to cultivate Orchid after Maranello method, search the Orchid Plants & Supplies, Free Info, Hydroponics, and More! - First Rays LLC and you will find quite a lot of information on how to cultivate

I spoke with the folks at Inocucor, and the microorganisms Do populate the polymeric substrate to some degree.

The critters will consume any carbon source - kelp is one of the sources used in the Inocucor product. That is actually how some of the protective/curative effects come about, as the metabolites break down chitin and lignin in order to extract the carbon.

I've never used trichoderma products, but Inocucor Garden Solution is not visible in the medium.

Thank you Ray and Nexogen.

It's good to know that beneficials can survive on a polymeric substrate. I do feed with kelp once or twice a month, although I watered the trichoderma in with straight RO water. Next scheduled feeding is with kelp though so, fingers crossed, I might start to see some benefit.


Kindest regards,
Alex

I think you need Calcium however; problems arise when you use tap water (chlorine, fluoride, etc).

I use Aptus CalMg Boost, which has an N,Ca,Mg ratio of 5-7-1 in between two feedings with Orchid Focus and Orchid Ultra and then one feeding of Plant magic Catalyst kelp before flushing.

Kindest regards,
Alex

After the initial inoculation I have some observations to report, two positive, one not so good. As previously mentioned I don't have control plants so this is in no way a controlled experiment, nor do I have any way to quantify what I am seeing, good or bad..

Bad news first, one of my rescued Phalaenopsis had just finished blooming and was sending out aerial roots like crazy, a dozen roots with very healthy green tips. This one wasn't in the best shape when I got it, but it wasn't at Death's door either. The morning after I watered with the Trichoderma, the healthy green tips have disappeared. There are very tiny, barely visible to the naked eye, brown spots at the tips of the roots, like they'd been singed with a match. The roots aren't an unhealthy colour otherwise, and the roots aren't shriveled or deformed in any way, but the absence of the previously vibrant green tips is noticeable. Nothing else has changed in it's care routine, save for the addition of the Trichoderma.

The more positive observations are even harder to quantify, and are entirely esoteric at this point. I have a Promenaea citrina x Limelight, it certainly isn't thriving, but at the same time there isn't anything to suggest that it's really struggling either, it's just existing. A couple of days after watering with the Trichoderma the leaves are a much more vibrant colour and just seem to be much more erect and perkier. It may not sound like much, but the difference is quite noticeable. Same thing happened with a Polystachya bella. This wasn't one of my garden centre rescues, but Parcel Force did their best to ensure that it reached me in the worst condition possible. The seller made every effort to make sure it was packaged safely and securely, but there was nothing that could be done to protect it from the attention of the untrained apes Parcel Force now seem to employ at their depots, a lead casket couldn't have saved it. It's been clinging on for a while, and although it hasn't gone any farther downhill since I got it, it's clearly been negatively impacted by the stress of shipping. A couple of days after applying the Trichoderma the leaves have taken on a healthier colour and are standing up much straighter.

As we all know orchids in general are very slow to do anything, so while Trichoderma applied directly to the roots may account for what has happened to my Phalaenopsis, I'm uncertain as to whether it could account for such rapid results with the other two plants, that being said nothing else has changed in their routine either, except for the Trichoderma.

Make of it what you will.

As for the Dendrobiums in Epiweb, the reason I actually started this thread, there is nothing good or bad to report. They seem to have taken the recent re-potting well enough, but there certainly isn't anything of note to report since applying the Trichoderma.

Kindest regards,
Alex

I was thinking; what happens to normal people who eat yogurt?

It's pretty much the same concept: introduce "good bugs" into the environment that can help overcome the "bad" ones.