Relying solely on lights - advice for my next setup?
 

Hi everyone,

I made the plunge to artificial lighting about 5 months ago and since then, my plants have loved it!

I'm attempting another grow shelf, and this one is in an area that gets very little ambient light. I would love to grow slightly higher light orchids (If I recall, higher light is considered 2000fc +?), and am looking at lighting options. I recently bought a 125W CFL impulsively, but have come to the conclusion since buying it that it may not be the best option. The reason is that in my original setup, I have a 65W, along with 4 23Ws, and I can only get sufficient light with the plants less than an inch away from the bulbs...if you can imagine, that makes for very little growing space! I'm hoping the 125W CFL will provide decent light at 4" away, but realistically the number of plants I can crowd underneath is miniscule....so I'm starting to think that CFLs are much better suited for spot lighting to supplement natural light rather than as the only source of light. To add to the mix, I'm growing on a rather thin, long shelf. T5s seem like the BEST option for this kind of setup....but then I started reading threads here, and it seems that the maximum FCs you can get with T5s at a reasonable distance from the bulbs are 1500FCs, which is good for blooming phals at best.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2291/...a0adb4.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2072/...80272d.jpg?v=0

Here is my first setup (one with a different exposure so you can see where the lights are). As you can see the leaves are practically up against the lights! Actually to be honest the color temperatures are all wrong but it was my first setup so I didn't really bother checking them....I should really put the plants I want to bloom/grow closer to their appropriate lights, but right now the governing factor in where a plant goes is it's size rather than what it needs...and I'm not too happy about that. :(

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2353/...959371.jpg?v=0

Here is my little phal shelf, with a crappy T12 fixture...but the phals don't seem to mind. It's likely because this area gets pretty good ambient sunlight.

So - I want to get maximum oomf for the minimum buck without having to stuff my plants right up to the light (makes it terrible when they try to bloom!). As a result, I've started thinking about 100W MH (which I have shied away from because I'm scared of electronics and wiring and I have no idea how ballasts work)...I saw some really nice threads here about how to setup 100W-150W MHs, which I perused briefly. How good would something like that be for a shelf setup?

My new pine shelf is 2 tiered, and is roughly 2.5ft by 1ft. It's really shallow, I know, but I'm going to be sticking mainly with minis, and I will also mount some plants at the back to some mesh wiring I hope to acquire. Any advice? I plan to mount my 125 W + 80W CFLs (one at 2700, one at 6500K) on one tier, and hope to get enough light to bloom orchids bordering on high light but still in the intermediate range.

Thoughts? Sorry for the long post, and if I wasn't too clear in what I'm asking! :roll: In essence I just want some reassurance/advice from you guys before shelling out the money to buy the lights.

Hi Calvin,
What your describing is the same fear I had when I started buying high light species last year. they are in a 12x12 room with a large window on the east and another on the north side
I supplement that with 3-4 ft flourescent fixtures,
then someone from my local orchid society told me this wasn't enough light to bloom them (I was so broken hearted) but, sure enogh not only have we been blooming them, I actually have burned vandaceous species in the east window here in zone 5,Illinois. (take that orchid lady) and.....they growing like crazy. I would post a picture of my setup but it is ugly.but the orchids make it a beautiful sight to me

OOOps forgot to say the plants are on large tables 2-3 ft. from the lights and blooming

Calvin, a 4' (nomial) 4 tube t5 fixture will produce over 2000 foot-candles 10" away. I am growing Dendrobium and Maxillaria and Angraecum at approx 12" or 1900 foot-candles. I think you'll be fine with a four foot four tube fixture. I personally like the New Wave brand. I also have a Sunblaze44 and it doesn't seem to put out as much light (different type reflector)

Thanks Deborah and Ross! So you think it will be sufficient for a relatively dark room with no ambient light? I will look around for sources and pricing for these lights in Canada. Would you suggest mixing 2 warm and 2 cool bulbs? Any idea what the typical price range is?

I paid about $12.00 for my fixtures (I didn't know anything at the time about types of fixtures but had heard those expensive grow light bulbs worked best, so this is what I put in my first setup. A few months down the road I bought a couple of cool growers, so had to set something up in a barely heated room for them, I couln't find the grow lights, so I purchased regular florescent, full spectrum that said sunlight on the package at a home improvement store for about $6.00 for 2. there are 3 in this room with a small west window , and so far I have bloomed 2 dendrobium nobile not to mention a citrus tree and 2 jasmines under these lights. I have since then replaced all my bulbs with the full spectrum sunlight bulbs and have seen a huge difference in my plants.sorry for such a long reply.

I really strongly recommend the 48" fixtures. I got mine from T5 Aquarium Lighting, T5 Fluorescent Grow Lights, Plant Grow Light Systems, Horticultural T5 Grow Light, T 5 Grow Light Check with them. They might ship to Canada (don't see why not!) Like I said, the Sunblaze44 is cheaper, but I only got like 1700 foot candles next to the lights. With the New Wave brand I get more than 2200 foot candles neaxt to light and by holding lights above plants 10-12" I measure approx 1900 foot-candles. You can grow Cats and Brassia with that kind of light with lights set for 12 hours winter and 16 hours summer. My basement is pitch black without the lights and looks like sunshine when lights come on. Also check this thread http://www.orchidboard.com/community...r-midwest.html John grows totally under lights. Read this post and see how dedicated he is to total light growing. I've corresponded with him and he is extremely helpful. I recommend either PMing hime or e-mail (he hasn't been around here lately so might not see the PM) if you need it, I think I still have his contact info.

Wow! I couln't find anything like that when I first started, I think I'll get some of those myself
thanks Ross.

Deb, you won't be disappointed! I assure you. And I am serious that the New Wave is better than the Sun Blaze. Thanks to Becca for stearing me toward these. I was so happy with the output and the company we got ours from (she got the 24" 8 tube version.)

That would be perfect for yet another area that I would like to transform into a growing room:rofl:
Maybe I just need to buy a large greenhouse and move into it,:drool: (now there is an Idea:hmm )just kidding .

Now think about it (I have :biggrin: ). What's the cost of heating and maintaining a greenhouse? Why do you need one? The cost of lights is way less than propane (or however you'd heat the glass budget-killer). If you have the space in a basement, that's the way to go. You read John's post, right? :scratchhead:

I think I agree! It's so shady here in the winter anyway (and cold) the heating and lighting bills would be disgusting!

Checked out John's post - awesome! It really complemented the talk that was given at our local society meeting last sunday by a great grower by the name of Wendy Hoffman, who has an 8' by 8' grow room in the basement...best of all, her heating is all covered by the heat generated by the ballasts of her 3 HID lights!

One day I'll have one of those...either that, or move to florida!

Wendy's a member here http://www.orchidboard.com/community...gara-show.html just a sample. Haven't heard from her in a while, but I'm sure she is still around.

yeah I thought I'd seen her around here :)

Okay I'm seriously considering a 4ft 4light T5 setup, but I've looked around (Ebay etc..) and I notice that there is quite the range of pricing. For instance, our local hydroponics shop sells them for 400 dollars, specialty lights sells them for 250, and on ebay I see them for 150!

I feel like somehow the fixture varies between brands - Ross you recommended NewWave - why is this one better? I saw some site (can't find it now) that said Tek is the best, but the ebay seller is selling the 4x4 Tek lights for cheaper than the new wave ones .... I'm really confused :scratchhead:

Any help would be appreciated! :bowing

And I almost forgot...I was looking at this link: http://www.aos.org/aos/uploadedfiles...edcattleya.pdf

And it says that catts need 3000+ Fc....so I don't think my T5s will be enough to bloom catts - Deb - you have natural light to supplement so I can see why your vandas are loving the additional artificial light, but I fear that I may not have enough light with T5s

That is vey true, I don't think I could have bloomed them on just one or the other.

I have no personal knowledge or opinion on the Tek lights. I used the Sunblaze 44 (4 foot, 4 tube) for over a year and I was not satisfied it was working correctly. The company offered to replace ballast but I still needed a replacement. Becca (another Orchiboard member out in Idaho) recommended New Wave and I tried it. It was a bit more money but ships with bulbs. The Sunblaze did not - they were extra. The New Wave uses 95% reflectance German aluminum and the Sunblaze has a mirror-like reflector. The New Wave is approx 2" wider than Sunblaze therefore has a different reflector design. I think this combo gives the higher foot-candles.

Now on the Cats - yes the books and growers say 3000+ foot candles, however I contend that is based on greenhouse growing where light intensity varies over the day length. So if you strive to provide 3000+ foot candles, you will certainly get much less than that at dawn and dusk and cloudy days. However with indoor lights, the intensity is at "full bore" seconds after the lights turn on and stays that way steadily for the length of day you,ve chosen. I believe the accumulated light energy in the plant may actually be higher with light growing, than in many bright windowbox situations or even greenhouses, especially at our latitude. If you check the pictures John included throughout that long post, he is using even t8's and blooming Cats. Don't fall into the trap I did at first and design your setup on specs alone. There's more here to consider than just the specs. There are just too many successful growers of all sorts of orchids who grow exclusively under lights. I think Wendy does, in fact. I was hoping Bill (Ocelaris on the Board) would chime in since he has all the science info we would ever need and can either confirm or correct my assumptions. I'll PM him and see what he has to offer.

Sorry, I've been plotting my new Vanda chamber! But, Ross has pretty much layed it out.

The Tek systems are the most popular I think because they look a little snazzier (black colored), and also since coral reef tanks are the primary user, they come with the right bulbs (actinic ultra blue) as a standard configuration. The New Wave is about 120$ cheaper, and I think that's a major plus. Ross has looked into both systems, so he has a better idea of the reflector... Just remember that the major consumers of a product usually skews the preference, so that's why the new wave probably isn't touted as much...


The estimates of "required" lights on many sites are way off... I have 1000-1800 lumens on a Vanda/Asc, and it's almost too much.... blooming very happily and rooting very well, my mini cats and LCs are also doing superb in the 1000-2000 FC range. Like Ross said, it's sustained light energy, so a steady diet of 1500 lumens is greater than a 3000 max day with plenty of clouds.

All in all, don't worry about the "numbers" they're only reference points. Aim for the numbers, but realize they're trumped by real world experience, see what everyone else is doing, because greenhouse gardening is a whole different ball game. I'm sure we all wish we had one, but as is, our needs and constraints are diferent.

If your height is going to stay within 12" of the tops of most of the plants, then I would say definetly go with the T-5s because you can get a lot closer than the Metal Halides, even the 100w.

The Metal Halides are a point source, so if you have the lights far away, you can get a denser focus with a good reflector, but they've got all the heat focused in a tiny little area, where as fluorescents have it dispersed. But I would reccomend keeping the T-5s encapsulated away from the plants, as they both benefit from higher heat (the bulbs) and the plants benefit from less heat.

I'm sure someone already provided you links, but just first google hit took me to this site, and it's 120$ difference...

All of the bulbs from the New Wave are GE brand, 85 CRI for reference.

Tek 4 bulb 4ft kit 215w $374
Tek Light T5 Fluorescent Aquarium Light 4ft 4 bulb 216W

New Wave T5 4ft x 4 bulb $247
New Wave T5 Fluorescent Grow Light 4ft 4 Bulb 216W

Deb - what I wouldnt' give for nice windows ;)

Ross that makes a lot of sense - I didn't even think about it that way. From a biochemical perspective the enzymes will constantly be active with the non-changing stream of light. Thanks for the reassurance!

With that in mind, I think I will go ahead and get the new-wave T5s - I think a 4ft by 4tube one would be good. Thanks for all your advice!

EDIT - bill I must have posted at the same time as you. Thanks for the great info. 250 bucks isn't completely unreasonable - now to find a source that ships to canada without further breaking the budget! I'm tempted to just buy them from the local hydroponics store, but 400 is a little ridiculous. This is really great info though about the sustained light. I was wondering why my phals were doing so well with 12 hours of only 200fc when they're recommended to have at least 500fc.

I got a 4 tube T5 high output fixture a year ago on ebay from a seller called "greatlights4less!" I am very pleased with it. I forget the price - maybe $175 to $200? Be careful reading the listings, though - he lists a fixture with 8 bulbs, but it's a 4 tube fixture with 2 sets of bulbs, not an 8 tube fixture.

I've misplaced my light meter, but this puppy is blazingly bright. I am currently flowering tropical waterlilies under it! With my old cheap shop lights, they merely survived through the winter with tiny leaves and no buds.

I too have longed for a greenhouse, but I couldn't afford the heating bills, especially now that energy prices are going up so fast. Growing under lights is definitely the way to go, if you have the room. I currently have a 9x11 foot spare bedroom full of lights, and I am working on expanding into the basement or playroom (hubby has put his foot down for now). Hmmm, once the kid leaves for college, her bedroom would make a nice orchid room....

Hi Sheila! I have also looked at the lights offered by this seller! I was worried that the quality wouldn't be as good since it seems they are relatively cheaper than the other lights, and I couldn't find a brand name on their listing....but if you are happy with them, I may try them as well (I'm on a really tight student budget...while it's nice to make the investment, it may not actually be possible!)

Do you have a light meter and if so, have you measured the FC output? I'd be interested to know how it compares to the new wave brand which ross was recommending. Does each bulb have it's own reflector or is there one big reflector for all of them?
Sorry for all the questions!! Thanks! :bowing :thanx:

I kind of got the impression that he makes his own reflectors. It's one big reflector that covers all 4 tubes together. One corner of the reflector was bent a tiny bit - the box got crushed on one corner in shipping - but it was otherwise quite well packed.

Unfortunately, I have misplaced my light meter; otherwise I'd be happy to get a reading for you.

I chose this because the price was cheaper than the other options, and it seemed like the guy knew his stuff based on his writeup on the product.

You can get a dual 4 foot T5 setup at home depot/lowes for 35$ or something silly cheap, I would check those stores first... The guy seems to be just putting a ring around the outside for a reflector on the T-5 setups. They are not the best reflector, as they are flat behind it, but they will work just fine, just not as fine as the ones you pay a lot more for... If you do see the lowes/home depot fixtures for cheap, definetly share, because I Think a lot of people would be interested. Bulbs will run you another 10$ (just get generic 4000k 80+ CRI bulbs and you'll grow just about anything fine).

The HPS/MH fixtures he is just buying old used Highbay/Lowbay ballasts and tossing on a reflector, you can usually pick a 400w MH/HPS fixture with bulb for ~70$ shipped if you are lucky, 100$ regular price. I've made the ammo box ballasts and DIY reflectors before and sold them on ebay. They work perfectly fine, just they're a PITA to make, so glad someone else is.

I've also scored some low wattage metal halide/HPS fixtures before as people had them labeled as flood lights etc... and didn't realize they had a ballast, there are 100s of halogen fixtures, but every once in a while there are some Metal Halide/HPS 100w or so for real cheap, I got one for 35$ shipped is my record!

Uh yes Calvin. Interesting point about the space issues and CFL's!
I've have some 42's and find they will take up some space aswell. I've thought about getting into some larger ones, but now that you mention that larger bulbs take up larger space, think I'll be putting that off.

My 42 CFL's work pretty well coupled with my 3ft. T-8's work well for me. I'm able to bloom catts and dends, with minimal heat mainly during our hot & very humid summers.

:D

Checked HD and Ronas (haven't checked Lowes yet) and haven't been able to find anything smaller than a T8. :( I will actually try looking around at aquarium shops because they seem to sell pretty intense lights. Will report back! :D

Good luck! I strongly suggest hydroponic stores or indoor growers. t5's will be nearly impossible to find right now as the technology hasn't been widely accepted outside the growing groups. Have you checked on line to see who will ship to Canada?

Calvin, I did a search on this web site Shipping Charges & Methods and it appears they ship to and from Ontario, Canada. So I recommend them since this is where I got mine. You get the bulbs with the fixture for their price.

Thanks ross! Great to know they ship here - hope the price is not too extravagant. I'm going to save up and hopefully when my next pay day rolls along, I'll have enough to go for it. I just made a purchase for an 90gallon aquarium, so this project is quickly becoming an orchidarium project...which fits nicely considering I'm planning on getting involved with aerangis species