Why I Wish Paphs Could be Mericloned
 

Hi. Sigh.:(

My take, is this vendor below offers divisions of some worldclass complex Paphs (my gestating new passion), brilliantly bred.

Scroll thru as many as possible and just behold the shape, the colors, the balance, the flatness of the segments on almost all!!!!!

Breathtaking.

But, the prices........:_(

Division Listing

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

Wait!~ I only just now scrolled down using their culture tab.....and found their fertilizing recommendations!

And simply given they do appear in a class by themselves, I am am taking this seriously!!!!

Fertilizer: Fertilizer should be applied regularly. The type used in Spring through early Fall should be a 30-10-10, 20-10-20, or 20,20,20 fertilizer every second or third watering at 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended strength. (Normally 1/2 to 3/4 tsp. per gallon.) In the mid Fall and through Winter switch to a bloom booster type of fertilizer (with a low first number and high middle number like a 10-30-20) or African Violet fertilizer, again at 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended strength.

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 PM ----------

K....so far, I have found 23 I want right now. Including this, which tells me, my lust for the big reds is not confined to those with spots:

http://www.marriottorchids.com/Galle...irror%20AM.jpg

I must email them and ask how much a division of this knee-weakening beauty would be WITHOUT the Corvette.:rofl:

Don't stress too much. A lot of what Marriott displays and offers is, how do I put this, an over priced illusion. I'm not here to bad mouth anybody or anybody's business, particularly not one of the locals, so I'm just saying, enjoy the fantasy, the photos, and the illusion, but don't in any way shape or form think that what you're seeing is reality or that there's any chance you'll get a plant that will do well outside of very specialized and precise growing conditions.

AFAIK Paphs can be mericloned, but for various reasons the procedures currently lack much utility in the horticultural trade.

Again, fertilizing regime they use is what they choose, not something you must follow.

Balanced fertilizers works just as great.

Plus, fertilizers do not make these flowers, it's in the gene.

You make lots of crosses and bloom them all out.
Surely you will get a few great looking ones here and there. It's like hitting jackpot in the lottery. The rest are basically just throw outs or sell to the general populations for much cheaper price.
That's just how it is and why the best of the best are super expensive.

I suggest that if you have the space and the patience, seek out for flasks of hybrids with some great potentails, and this will not be easy because growers want to keep them to themselves, but sometimes they do come up.

Then you grow all those babies for a number of years.
You should get one nice looking paph, and even then it might not win an award, but hey, if you end up happy with your plant, then it's much cheaper to take this route than to buy those divisions.

With this said, I have nothing against buying those beautiful and expensive paphs. :biggrin:

O!!! :shock:

At this moment my little face exactly resembles the smilie above!

By all accounts, I am hugely discerning.....while ALSO having little cynicism. The latter has upsides....and downsides.

Are some of those worldclass named cultivars depicted not actual?????:(

---------- Post added at 01:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 AM ----------

The chronology you delineate, I assumed is a given.

But, to me, also moot, given how many worldclass cultivars this gentleman seems to have bred over 25 years....is ATYPICAL, if not unique. Assuming those depictions are actual.

It seems no other commercial grower/breeder of complex Phals even comes close.

I think all this is something to celebrate....not trivialize.

I find it thrilling and inspiring.....even if aspects of that site are not exactly as they appear.

And I could not care much less about awards, tho his hybids have won hundreds. Such things have little impact on my being my own arbiter/judge and jury re what moves and thrills me.

As I shared in a PM.....coming upon all those "Be still my heart" cultivars...made me feel even better about having determined to win my Paph Eric 'pittsburgh' on eBay this past winter.

I follow the bulldogs in their seasonal offerings on ebay....and until that one went up, I had never been moved to bid on any. the flat segments, the color, the balance I am drawn to, seem to mark all this gentleman's triumphs.

JMNYC - Hadley grows some absolutely outstanding plants. (I have family in Greensboro, so can be at Marriott in under 30 minutes.)

I'll acknowledge that his prices can be pretty steep at times, but I've never purchased anything from him that I didn't consider a good deal.

Here's a Phrag Sorcerer's Apprentice I got there that has been getting nothing buy K-Lite for 3 years. (It blooms redder when the temperatures are lower):

http://www.firstrays.com/Pictures/Ph...Apprentice.jpg

I don't see where in my last comment you find something that is "trivializing" Hadley Cash and his plants.

I simply stated the fact that the desirable hybrids he come up with have mainly to do with chances of genetic combinations, and not his fertilization regime.

Plus, your saying none other paphiopedilum breeders come close to him might have simply mean your respect and admiration for his results, but it rather sounds too ignorant and even highly offensive because yes, he is well known in the slipper world, but guess what! He is not the only one and there are MANY other great paph breeders in the US and other countries.

One more thing, and this you might twist or misunderstand, but my intention is to enlighten you, not to degrade Hadley Cash, is that all those pictures are real, but not all (acutally many many of them) are his creation. Good chunks are well known classic complex paphs that were bred looooong time ago in the Great Britain.

He was lucky to include such nice plants to include into his breeding programs.

Also, many award quality beautiful paphs are photographed in their prime.
The may look that nice for short period of time as distortion of dorsal or other flower parts are common.
Plus, with such complex hybrids, the flower quality does vary, although some are more (or even nearly always) consistent than others.

Well! I had no clue! Do you mean the procedures are daunting? Too expensive to be a part of the commercial world? Inconsistent in the results they produce?

Can you please elaborate?

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------

I don't see where in my last comment you find something that is "trivializing" Hadley Cash and his plants.

I felt you were in a palpable leit motif giving left handed compliments and trivializing, and methinks you still are.

I simply stated the fact that the desirable hybrids he come up with have mainly to do with chances of genetic combinations, and not his fertilization regime.

You are saying he doesn't make keen differential decisions in breeding, but is some version of haphazard, even arbitrary.
I read everything on his site, and my take-away is he is anything but. I found that thrilling. Not to mention, I doubt his facility is anywhere NEAR as big as the huge commercial, well reputed growers who have the facilities, the staff to produce far more flasks than this guy.

Plus, your saying none other paphiopedilum breeders come close to him might have simply mean your respect and admiration for his results, but it rather sounds too ignorant and even highly offensive because yes, he is well known in the slipper world, but guess what! He is not the only one and there are MANY other great paph breeders in the US and other countries.

Sigh...more invective hurling. Can you offer secifics in who has achieved more impressive results?

One more thing, and this you might twist or misunderstand, but my intention is to enlighten you,

Again, authoritarian versus the linchpin of what marks a,ll fine academic communities: authoritative...and heady exchanges always absent insults and name calling.

.... all those pictures are real, but not all (acutally many many of them) are his creation. Good chunks are well known classic complex paphs that were bred looooong time ago in the Great Britain.

I would love one or two examples.

He was lucky to include such nice plants to include into his breeding programs.

Clearly, and who would gain say this???.....the gentleman did not start from SCRATCH. Who alive in this endeavor has?

Also, many award quality beautiful paphs are photographed in their prime.

:shock: Aren't ALL orchids professionals choose to photograph for publication (except when they depict pathology_???

The may look that nice for short period of time as distortion of dorsal or other flower parts are common.
Plus, with such complex hybrids, the flower quality does vary, although some are more (or even nearly always) consistent than others.


Well, all of your offering, concluding with the above: my take is not just trivializing, but actually impugning.

What in all of commerce, is not depicted in its most ideal state? Think runways in Milan....or Paris, NY. Think Charles Marden Fitch!

And, while this guy has cutting edge photo equipment, now, I am sure, fine Digital SLRs ....just seeing how meticulous he is in THAT, for me, was emblematic of all he brings in this entire arena.

Finally, it also appears, Lee Cook of the AOS might disagree with what you INSIST is the truth re this gentleman and what he does and has accomplished and continues to.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

O! So many thanks Ray, for what, for me, appears an important, objectively accurate assessment! And that Phrag...its form, with colors both vivid and subtle.....IS TO DIE FOR.

You are 30 mins away from his facility? Lucky you!!!!

Not to mention, you Phrag is perfectly grown. No surprise.:biggrin:

We all know market values work back to what a given individual is willing to pay. I simply would not choose to give $1,500 for a division of one of this gentleman's singularly breathtaking Paphs.

But I cherish you shared, via first hand experience, you feel the specimens have chosen to buy from him....were worth what you gave!:bowing

Wow~

I think you have serious reading problems unless you are doing this intentionally.

I'm tired of this, so I'll make this as short as possible and this will be my last post here.

First, I was only responding to the way you started your thread. Great hybrids at Marriot orchids and then you added in their fertilizing schedule. You also started a thread about how fertilizing certain way causes paphs to spike. So I responded by saying it is not so. See I was only relating things that you considered to begin with, rather than giving left handed or trivializing views. How ridiculous!

Two, I never said he did not make keen differential decisions in breeding. Now you're literally putting words into my mouth.
I only said how hybridizing works. With all the great intentions and desire ( however keen differential decision making is involved), it's in the end the chance game, hence I compared it to lottery.
You have real problem of twisting things around.

Plus, the rest of what you said only shows how ignorant and rude you are.

Take some time and do your own search if you so wish to find out who are some great breeders are and their plants.

If you have some more time, then visit marriot orchids website photo gallery section, start with page A and find out who the original breeders and registers are.

Have fun!

No, I'm about 8 hours from him, in Bucks County PA. I have family in GSO, so I have an excuse to be down there.

Ahah! Almost as good! Especially, when the transit time passes at warpspeed when we are infused with joy! So good you have relatives there!

In the unlikely event I might find the time for the privilege of going there.....he might need a winch to get me to leave.:lol:

Wonder if his son shares his passion?

Per OrchidWiz and RHS registrations Marriott Orchids has originated 163 complex Paph. hybrids. His plants have received 78 awards on 37 different plants (many having been awarded more than once). So 23% of the orchids he himself has bred have been award quality to date. Not bad. I think that percentage illustrates what NYCorchidman was trying to say about breeding being somewhat of a crap shoot.

Terry Root from The Orchid Zone has originated 426 Paph. hybrids. He has received 799 awards on 95 different plants (again many plants awarded more than once, Macabre awarded 181 times!). So again 22% of the orchids Terry has created are award quality. Not all of the 426 hybrids are complexes. Terry has created hybrids from every Paph. section under the sun.

There are lots of other good Paph. breeders out there. Piping Rock Orchids, Windy Hill Orchids, Woodstream Orchids, and Hillsview are a few that come to mind. I think you should peek at Hillsview as they specialize in complexes.

Every breeder has an idea of what they are looking for when hybridizing. Since you are dealing with seed the variability is absurdly high. You might end up with 20% or less that are what you envisioned. You may also end up with something completely amazing that never occurred to you. I think it's also important to remember that the numbers I gave above are ONLY the registered hybrids. Who knows how many were so bad they ended up on the compost pile?

Thanks for these data! I never thought this gentleman was the only uber breeder on the planet, but I do think he is exceptional, especially, given the apparent size of his operation.

I have ALWAYS known the detailed reality of hybridizing orchids, what is involved over time to come up with even one or two exceptional plants. That applies to everyone who chooses to do this, by definition, no exceptions. It is all a given.

It's also why, when I buy I buy almost no seedings....esp re complex Paphs!

Carter and Holmes does very decent breeding, Hausermann as well (along with many others)....which is why, when Gene at C&H found out I owned Paph Swallow 'Karen" he was hell bent on getting a division.....for breeding. (Again, he sent me my WC division in trade.)

Ironically, simply cause a guy at Hausermann adored me on the phone....he said, I am going to send you something AMAZING for $20, a small fraction of what it is worth..... something you will adore and most people can't afford. He would not even tell me the alliance. That.....is how I got my Paph Swallow 'karen' I loved her first bloom, but still had no clue re the fame or rarity of this hybrid. He, I realized a year later, had sent me a division from one of their stud 'karens'!

But, I am still in serious lust for at least 7 of the 23 cultivars on the Marriott. site I was drawn to.

Again, unexpected bonus: my having been determined to win my pah Eric 'Pittsburg' on ebay, I fist felt was indulgent, was confirmed, given, I think it could stand right up there with some of this gentleman's spotted complex reds! And, what I ended up giving, including shipping this past winter, was around $66. Which I now feel was an uber bargain!!!!

On my way out now to find a bank to rob so I can buy those seven hybrids.

Kidding!:biggrin:

And alas, I stand by all I have posted. I come to nothing with alacrity. Nor am I ever about combat or contests. I get paid to first "see" with original eyes, and then communicate all of it. I write (also counsel humans) for a living.


Thanks again for those data!!!!:waving

Terri, et.al.....

I found an image of Paph Swallow 'karen" online; alas, I never took a pic of mine before it got killed after its first bloom. I will put that image up, FYI.

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/ki/89527253/)

It's very nice. I have to say that you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to tastes in Paphs (shocker I know). I far prefer species and primary hybrids. I love big multi-florals, Parvis and Cochlis, and any combination of the three. I like seedlings because they are cheap, and I'm always hoping to win the genetic lottery and get that one unexpected amazing example.

I had a couple of complexes for a while just to prove to myself I could bloom them. After several successful bloom seasons I sold one and gave the other to a neighbor. They just don't do it for me.

It WAS nice, Terri.....until my then orchid tending surrogate ended up killiing many of my precious plants....and, in only two weeks.

Very normal for taste in this to be subjective! And who would want it any other way given the possibilities?

But, if U wanna go bank robbing with me so we can buy all our dream cultivars without a second thought.....I will meet you at the airport!

Excellent plan, given we will not be both wanting the same ones!:lol:

When you look at the photos, undestand that award photos are from an optimum blooming. With variations in growing conditions and/ or blooming time, the resulting flowers can look quite different.

Hadley has bred many good things, but he has also purchased many of the plants shown from other breeders and collectors.

Again, making images at the peak of bloom is the default within the entire subculture. I assumed that was a given.

Hadley, in his descriptions of some of the divisions he offers, often refers to such as "when I bought it....'
I never assumed had had personally bred all he offers.....but I submit there is no obfuscation on his site, and he is not about chicanery. AT ALL.

Even just by reading his descriptions, you get a very clear sense of who he is, what he knows on which levels and what he brings.

This guy is no dilettante.

One thing I try to keep in mind when looking at photos of blooms is not only that plants grown from seed are bound to be different but also that photos can be "enhanced" very subtly. Without making the photo "fake" you can make colors more vibrant and increase the contrast. This is great to do but I just hate the thought when I'm looking plants photos and wondering if it's shown as taken or "improved upon".

I've gotten a number of plants - again knowing the photos were just representations - that wound up looking nothing like the photo. My Paph. President Fred & Hawaiian Illusion weren't what I expected. In fact Pres. Fred is better than I thought it would be (said bred to bring out the pink but looks more red to me) while Hawaiian Illusion wasn't nearly as impressive. I just got three Paphs from Hausermann's, all in spike, with dark buds, serious gamble for me (totally surprise buys) but I can't wait to see. Two have only one growth so they're going to be newbies to the world, while the third is crossed with Fairrieanum and has three growths, maybe it bloomed already??? I really actually wanted to get a 4th, and might go back, because they had so many in spike with dark buds and cool leaves...I digress...

What I know of Orchid genetics reminds me of the little bit I've read about apples. I had no idea that all apples are hybrids of one original species/tree (sorry I'm not exact on my facts here) and that each new seedling produces a new apple tree. In other words the apples we eat over and over are cloned in order to keep getting a Honeycrisp. How many crappy apples have breeders tasted? Lol. I'm a bit nervous myself about these 3, excited, yes but nervous because really I bought blindly (GAMBLER!). I didn't know when I first became truly obsessed that so many plants are first bloomed THEN sold.

I'm also nervous to be starting out on the breeding road of some of my Phals!!

Interesting thread though, even with all the bickering. ;) I must say I do appreciate that that's not an all the time thing like it is on a lot of forums. But I do so understand it as well.

Just a warning to 'keep it friendly'.

This thread seems to be back onto the friendly track again with the latest posts and at this point moderators are not taking any action, however some folks have reported to us that they are upset with comments here and skim reading through I can see why that is.

So, keep it friendly, :mods: and please refrain from any personal comments even if you disagree with what someone has said.

And to revert to the thread title, Paphs can be mericloned, but the results are not stable (too many random mutations to make it a reliable process).

For Cattleya, one grower commented that he expects 20% worse, 20% better, and the remaining 60% to be true to parent plant. For Paphs it is reportedly much worse.

Thank you, I adore knowing this!!! Esp that even with Catts, there are no guarantees of fidelity to the parent plant!

But divisions are sooooo much more expensive than mericlones.

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

Thank you, Ms Rosie!

July 24 correction!

Just realized the pic I put up was NOT, in fact, Paph swallow "Karen'! First awarded in 1921. Imagine that!!! Decades later, awarded higher, and after that, even higher. I will now fix this by putting up a proper image. Mine was a surprise gift from amazing guy at Stewart's who just liked me a lot on the phone. I had no clue what it might be.