Pollination failed...
 

I tried to pollinate some of my Phals, minis and full-size, four (2 of each) to be exact. Within 24 I could see the flowers begin to wilt and close up over the pollinia. However after 4 days I noticed that only one of them looks to have a more swollen petiole/ovary. The other three look very much like a dying flower. Then today (5 days after pollination) I discovered one of the full-size flowers actually fell off!

For a little more info I'll share that I pollinated two minis with one pollen each from a full-size. The full size orchids received 2 pollen (both that came from one flower) from miniatures. The two minis look as though their flowers will ultimately just fall off as well, but one of the full-size is more swollen.

Is anyone familiar with this? Could it be something I did wrong? Natural process & I should try again or perhaps they just aren't compatible? When pollinating do you use both "packets" from one flower to fertilize another or can you divide the two up to different flowers like I did? The flower that does appear to have been successfully pollinated btw is an older flower just like the other full-sized and one of the minis. However it was pollinated by "younger" pollen (pollinia?).

Thank you for your help. :blushing:

Not every pollination works. After promising start, the prospective pod can abort at almost any time. There can be any number of reasons, incl.:

Genetic incompatibility
Plant too weak to carry a pod
Dry spell

I have never tried pollinating Phals, but I do work with both Paphs & mini Vandaceous group. On Paphs, if pod holds past flower fading (pollination does not shorten flower life) = 90-95% chance that pod will develop.

In Vandaceous group (closely related to Phals), I have seen more random pod failures. I have also seen pods carried to maturity, but containing no live seed.

One issue that comes into play concerns flower size.
A: Pollen from small flowers might not be able to grow tubes long enough to complete the pollination of large flowers.
B: Pollen from large flowers might not fit into smaller flowers. When this is the case, the flower should not show signs of wilting though - unless you severely manhandled it during pollination process.

Thank you for this information. Pollination definitely shortened the life of these flowers - all of them - immediately. Only one has fallen off thus far. It makes sense that sometimes pollination isn't successful I just wanted to make sure there wasn't anything more obvious and predictable that I was perhaps missing.

I just happened to have pollinated a Neofinetia falcata last Saturday (with a Rhy retusa to improve on the flower count), so I took a photo of that plant today. There were only two flowers on the spike that I pollinated, so it is easy to compare the non-pollinated with the pollinated.

After 4 days they look like this:

Here's the one Phal that did succeed in being pollinated. It's been 11 days since I did so. This is a full size pollinated by a mini.

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:biggrin:

Interesting, thank you for sharing that. It seems your flowers don't suffer as much. I went ahead, as you see, and shared my "pod progression" so far, that is, after 11 days. How do yours look?

I go to greenhouse twice a week. On last Sat the pod had clearly swollen further, so it appears to be successfull for now.

With Neofinetia falcata as pod parent, this is a relatively short wait now (abt 5 months).

lotis146: In post #5, that certainly looks like the pollination worked!

It can take months for the seeds and pod to be ready. I am not sure how long it will take for a hybrid Phal, but my Cattlianthe took 8 months to fully ripen. I have a Cattleya pod growing now that I expect will be ready around Christmas to New Years.

That's great! Wow, only 5 months about huh? I learned a while back that pod/seed development takes quite a bit of time, sometimes maybe up to a year! If mine makes it to the 6 week - 3 month mark(s) I'll then start getting more nervous about when to do the pod is ready to be sown. I'm planning to go with a commercial flasker. Only reason I'm glad it takes this long, I've got more time to learn and prepare!!



Yes I know, I'm very happy it's made it this far!! :biggrin:

I've got to do my homework on Phal pod development. When did you pollinate your Catt? Would you mind sharing some pics? I've got some Catts I want to breed when the opportunity arises but I'm still so new to them that I'm trying to get a better understanding of their overall anatomy and growth, very different from Phals who I'm most comfortable with (though I have more Catts now...sheesh...)

Pod maturing time varies greatly by genus. In Paphs it is often 10-15 months. Neofinetia falcata is short at 165 days mean time, so I plan to harvest around 140-145 days for green pod.

First photo showed pod at 4 days, photo shown here is at 11 days.

It usually takes my Phal seed pods about six months before they are ready to harvest. We do green pod flasking and I watch for the end of the pod to start turning yellow.

The disappointment is when you think you have a viable pod but when it is open you have nothing but cotton type material.

Brooke

Mine is just lightly more swollen at 17 days now. If the plant is dropping its other flowers (slowly) due to old age does this pose a threat for the pod or does it not matter now that it is a pod (as though it doesn't follow normal rules anymore!)?

Wow, 10-15 for some Paphs! I'm learning that a large part of balancing Orchid addiction is well, having a lot of plants (speaking only in terms of Orchid related, life will keep you plenty busy outside them). While you're waiting on pods, seedlings, new growth blooms, you're also waiting on any of the above for so many others!!

One thing I wonder/worry about is something I did over the week. I pollinated a couple of plants with pollen from the same plant in two flowers (2xA in 2xB). I say worry because I don't necessarily want to deal with two pods that are the same rather I wanted to double the likelihood that a pod would develop and mature.

I'm pretty happy this one has made it thus far.

---------- Post added at 03:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------


Do you flask your own? I'm planning to send my to a commercial flasker. Nice to hear yours only take about 6 months!! I'll admit the time frame doesn't bother me too much, just gives me more time to be prepared!

About how long do yours take on average from flask to deflask? And may I ask how much breeding you do? I want to breed some of my mini catts some day and I've heard of some blooming 18 months out of the flask! Wouldn't that be nice!

My husband does the flasking. The seedlings normally stay in the first flask for a year, maybe slightly longer and then they are replated. Replating takes at least a year before they need more attention, either replating or moving them to a compot.

The only two things we tried to breed and ended up losing them because the spike died was Phal. lowii and Hab. medusae. Both of those plants for me start losing the spike as soon as the last bloom is gone. Or the problem could have been neither pod was viable and the plant knew it.

All of my Catt seedlings take years to bloom, even the small growing ones. I'm seven years into a C purpurata alba, they are in 6" pots and still no blooms. The three smaller Catts have been out of flask for six years and aren't even close to bloom size.
They are currently in 4" pots.

No we are not doing any more hybridizing and have our last efforts in replate containers.

Brooke

Wow, thanks for sharing, that sounds intense. I was thinking about how I'd be a different person probably 5 years from now. The story would go, "Way back when I pollinated this plant, i never thought I'd see this day..." Lol.

That's nice he can and is willing to do that. How can you tell when they're blooming size? (I've long wondered this...)

Do you "bloom yours out" as they say or do you sell off seedlings and keep a few for yourself?

All I can do is wait and see now because this plant had already dropped quite a few flowers and, excluding the pod, there's only two flowers left, one of which is about to die. I have a totally different "rescue" Phal btw that dropped all its flowers but one and has kept that one little flower for over a month before I put it outside and it started to wilt. Interesting too is that I have a big box store, dyed blue Phal that was in bloom (some dying) end of February. Flowered not more than a month longer and I left the spike on, and it's STILL there!

The others I've pollinated have also been in bloom for quite some time, not ideal I know, so we'll see if they take and if they hold on even if all the flowers are gone.

I do try to bloom out anything I have grown from seed, particularly if I bought the flask. The C. purps were purchased and I would hate to give something away that didn't bloom out true to type.

I don't sell anything but do give them away to raise money for my local OS and the Judging Center fund raisers.

The only way to tell if something is blooming size is to bloom them :blushing:

If you decide to grow many different things from flask I suggest when you start throw away any real tiny seedlings. My first two flasks contained 36 and 40 seedlings and I kept all of them - some bloomed in 18 months (Phals) and some took five years :(( Never again!

Brooke

On Vandas I often do double pods. If one does not take, maybe the other will.

Also , if one pod opens unexpectedly, I can still harvest the other unopened.

On Paphs I usually do not have the luxury of multiple flowers, so there I do singles.

Brooke, when you do green pod harvesting, how can you tell if the seed pod is viable or not just be looking at the 'cotton seeds'? I am planning on green pod harvesting my Phal seed pod at 6 months of age. I hope its viable!
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Watch for the change of color on the pod. When the ends of the pod starts to yellow, I remove them.

Brooke

Mine is progressing along still, I am quite happy though I'm biting my nails as the last flower on the spike looks to be about to fall, and that's not long after the last one fell not even a week ago. However this plant was in double spike and the other spike has been without blooms for quite some time and the spike has only browned on the last 4-5". So hopefully my plant will not give up on its pod! Plus most my Phals are still inside and have stayed more moist than the others, but I neglected to pay attention to just how dry they got and who isn't in all moss...*sigh*...Lord don't let me kill the pod! ;)

FairOrchids, that makes sense about your Paphs when they're singular flowers. I'm really hoping with my other ones, not at this location, that I get a pod out of each cross though I really don't want two!! What do you do then!?!

Brooke, again, I cannot imagine having to wait that long without first really knowing and anticipating the wait would be so...terrible! Thanks for the advice, but gosh it seems it would be so hard to just toss the little buggers out!

So the Phal that was successful still has its pod though all of its flowers are gone. Things seem to be going well with it.

However none of the handful of plants I pollinated two weeks ago were pollinated successfully. All the pollinated flowers fell, wanh wanh wanh... Goldstaff & Golden Lawrence #3 were the two I wanted to breed the most but hey, next time... For now keeping my fingers crossed for Focus '181's' pod. That pod is almost a month old btw, I will post pic next week.

Pod photo update
 

Here is the one pod that was born from the initial pollination one month later.

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For sake of reference this was it after 11 days, today's post again is a month later almost exactly.

Looks great. :) Mine is only 1 month away from Green Pod harvesting! I'm so excited to try sowing it on my own. :D

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...1&d=1405201707

Awesome! So may I ask Czayta, how much propagation are you dealing in right now? Do you have a lot of prior experience in this area of Orchid growing?

Okay and another question, what determines when a pod is green pod ready? I've heard others say they harvest when both ends start to yellow...?

Thanks for sharing & nice pic, how many months has that pod been developing thus far?

Wow I didn't know your going to sew your own pod Halee. I thought you were sending it away. I would love one of its babies when they are ready and come out of the flasks. That is from your Peach colored Phal correct?

Yes, it is a peach/salmon/coral colored flower with big round leaves and blooms frequently. Crossed to a pure white one. If I'm successful in a year when I deflask them I'd be happy to share. :)

Here is a picture of the flower after just opening. =)
http://www.orchidboard.com/community...1&d=1405291226

Awwwwww thanks Girl friend. I will love sharing with you.

I have never propagated anything before. This is my first seed pod. I have high hopes though. I am a medical technologist and I worked in a microbiology lab for a year so I know about aseptic technique :D I also have a laminar flow hood available to me. Too bad I don't have an autoclave anymore lol. I purchased a lab manual for seed propgation and I have done a lot of research. I hope I'm successful. :)

I have done a lot of research and there are tables which show when certain types of orchids will be ready for green seed pod sowing. Phalaenopsis are ready to harvest green pod at 110-120 days.

The seed pod in that pic was hand pollinated on April 19th. So it has been growing for three months. I will sow it in August. I'm so excited :D After I sow it, I'm going on vacation so I won't be able to check the flasks for four days after lol. maybe something will look different when I get back :)

Sounds exciting! I wish you all the best with that. That's pretty awesome that you have all of those resources. I'll look forward to seeing how it comes along. I plan to send my pod away and have to touch base to see if they want a green pod.

That's a really pretty flower btw!