Plant project- reviving the flask/seedling project idea
 

Last summer/fall we were discussing what sort of projects we could do, as a change from the usual projects. For one to spice things up a bit, and secondly with so many people participating (40+), a normal project has become an organisational nightmare.

One idea we had was to do a seedling project, which would be more long term. How long term depends on how quickly the selected plant develops. The most logical choice is to get flasks from Ecuagenera at shows, since they travel to shows frequently, and all over the place. However, if we do it this way we need to get the ball rolling, to pick a species (that meets temperature/size criteria as usual), and decide how exactly we are going to do this. The advantage is that the organizing is minimal compared to the usual projects. We'd probably just do a poll to decide which species we want. This would likely need to be done within the next month so there is time to preorder.

1) we need to see who is going to which shows, and so who can pick up stuff. (US is easy with so many shows and OB members, EU and CAN not so much).

2) One issue is that it will be only a few people paying, who will then have to dispatch plants. So we need to trust complete strangers for the most part that they will pay up.

Thoughts? And who's interested?

I've been toying with the idea of getting a flask but the cost and the fact I have no experience deflasking has held me back from experimenting. If the cost is reasonable $50.00-$75.00 US I would be interested. If anyone in lower NY State wants to team up that would be even better.

Bill

I looked, their flasks are between $30 and $70 for the most part, 15 seedlings per flask. The individual costs then depend on how many people share a flask.

I think this is a great idea honestly. If three users buy one flask and then make compots it would be decent. Only problem would be multiple orchids but I doubt many would care. I'd also assume that it is going to drop the amount of participants by a good amount.

Hi Camille, just a idea. don't know if they ship orders to Europe. But Carmela orchids sells hybrid catt plug trays 25 for 30.00. and 10 to ship. takes around 4 years to bloom. I did a group purchase a few years back and I still have most of the ones I kept. gave a lot away. they also sell on Ebay
If your looking to do something different.

AAA25 Cat Plugs T 4671 Pot Love Call 'Nora' | eBay

Thanks, I'll look into it. The name is familiar, I **think** a UK nursery does business with them and imports for their clients. I'm just not sure if it's carmela or not. I'll try to find the UK grower again.

That actually sounds really awesome. If we keep it to a mini-catt it wouldnt be too expensive and most would bloom within a year probably. Light intensity might be an issue.

these plugs will take at least 4 years to bloom. but not as long as flask plants

Wow, really?

I think that is a long, long, long time for a project.

Another issue if people are sharing a flask is I don't think you can really open a flask, plant and send all the seedlings straight off. I think that the person who gets the flask in the first place would either have to split the flask into smaller flasks, or aclimatise the seedlings for several weeks before sending them off. It's a problem...

One idea might be to colaborate with a suitable commercial grower?

I have been thinking about this project though. Not really researched it fully, but an idea I had was that Phal violacea might be a good one to do. I'm thinking that might be available quite a few places: I know of places sell flasks in Europe and I'm sure there's some in the States (Norton for a start... though not sure if they are too expensive). Few different varieties too, and should be pretty quick growing.

It's a shame Roelke don't travel around: they do little flasks with 4-5 plants for 7 euros each. Would be perfect for this! I'm growing some of theirs I deflasked in October...

I'm going to have a word with someone from my orchid society who's recently started a small orchid buisness. He might have some ideas how this could work.

These mini-flasks would be perfect and as far as I am aware flasks do not fall under CITES and no permit is required to export/import ?

Ni CITES necessary, but you still need phyto certificates for flasks. Not sure about import/export permits though.

I've done some deflasking of Phals, and can help out if we go through with this project. Deflasking other orchids is similar, so no worries there. If we do a Catt or similar, it will be 4-5 years to bloom them. Phals might take less time, maybe 2-3 years depending on how big they are in flask. Not sure about others. Tolumnia could be fun, and are small?

Also, I'll be attending a few shows coming up, Ashville show in March I think, probably Redlands, and maybe some others. Not that the US is the difficult dance partner here, but every person counts.

If it's true flasks can travel without cites, then maybe Roelke might be a possible source for everyone?

I actually have to email them about something anyway: shall I ask them how much it would cost to send flasks to the States and Canada while I'm at it? And what paperwork would be needed?

Don't take my word for the no CITES thing. I've read so many things over the years about this stuff that I've lost track of the requirements... I'm about 90% sure that flasks don't need CITES, but it may also depend on the country.

I had a bit of a look, and I think it might actually be correct. It sounds like possibly you'd still need some paperwork, but not full CITES. I think possibly a free import certificate for the US end (sorry to the Canadians, US is what I found) and some documentation from the vendor end.

Here's what Schwerter charge for shipping outside Europe (nb this is for plants, not flasks...)

Shipping costs 39,90 € - 79,90 €
Shipping free of soil (eg USA, Japan) 10,00 €
Plant protection certification (eg USA, Canada) 35,00 €

Here's an AOS article: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...3SUE9JyWD0Gx4Q

I'm thinking it might still mean one person recieving the stuff and passing it on to keep costs reasonable. But at least if it's mini flasks from Roelke then that person wouldn't have to be re-flasking or hardening off seedlings: they'd just need to send them on. That is if Roelke charge a similar amount to Schwerter!

You may find that some species are subject to limits at the supplier end as a way to manage any cites issues. If I buy orchid flasks from Bali they are only allowed to sell a certain number of some species each year so if they are over their limit I wouldn't be able to have the flask shipped even if they have plenty of flasks for sale.

I still think that the easiest way involving the least hassle is getting flasks/seedlings via growers at shows. No paperwork to deal with.

And actually, seeing that Americans are always the majority in projects, if there's any flasks travelling from one continent to the other, it makes more sense for EU to get them from the US than the other way around.

But then if shipping freshly deflasked seedlings is as impossible as you say, then we should just abandon the idea altogether. It just creates an entirely different set of headaches and hassles.

I think the export limit thing might apply to Ecuagenera. But hopefully we'd still be able to get something if we bought from them.

Good points Camille. Though I think it's worth investigating how much flasks sent from Roelke would be. If it does work out reasonable for those over the pond, then it might work to go that way.

Re posting deflasked seedlings. Thinking about it, I think it might be possible, if not ideal. I think you'd have to send in an airproof baggy or tub with a bit of moss. Then the person at the other end would have to treat them as if they'd deflasked them themselves: which means very clean conditions to start (microwave the moss...) as they were sterile in the flask, and gradually reducing humidity (someone told me they don't have enough of the pores on their leaves to control their water levels, as they didn't need them in flask, so they need time to develop more).

Of course if we could find the same flasks available both sides of the pond... that's why I thought violacea would be a good idea. Tolumnias might work too, especially if we don't insist on a partiucular one.

But then if shipping freshly deflasked seedlings is as impossible as you say, then we should just abandon the idea altogether. It just creates an entirely different set of headaches and hassles.

That's kinda why I suggested plugs. They are hardened and easy to ship. :)

Plugs are a good idea if we can find them. Also, if there is someone willing overseas to do replates, we could just take one flask, make several smaller plant # flasks, and then ship them out. Then everyone could learn to deflask and do that whole process. I replate seedlings, so I could help there as well.

Carmella in Hawaii sells trays of 25 for 30.00. the only problem will be if the Folks in Europe can get them. The chance's of seedling surviving de flasking and shipping is a real challenge. They also sell flasks
Orchid Growers - Hakalau, HI - Carmela Orchids

I still can't remember which UK grower works with a US one, it's driving me nuts. Not sure it was Carmela, I remember it was a grower doing lots of Catts.
Or maybe they do do that partnership anymore, which is why I can't find them again...

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

Found it, finally! Well, not Carmela, though it started with a C : Carter & Holmes. At Laurence Hobbs Orchids in the UK.

What would happen if someone tried to send you one bare root?:evil:

Hi all, been doing some research, and it looks to me like we have 3 directions we could go with this.

1) 'We want to all grow the same plant, which we can't normally get in all 3 areas'
In this case we need a seller that goes round the shows internationally, such as Ecuagenera but there may be others. I think in this case maybe it doesn't need to be seedlings/flasks.

2) 'We want to grow the same thing from flask together'. In this case it's nearly impossible to find the same thing in all 3 areas within the normal budget. Ordering flasks from one source is likely to be the only way. From my research so far Roelke is looking the best option. Flasks in the States tend to be more pricey (if larger) to start. Plus cytosanitary certificates: the going rate from the States seems to be around $150 while from the EU it's around 35 euros (not heard back from Roelke yet). Plus with Roelke doing the mini flasks if there's one person getting the 'shipment' and sending them on they don't have to re-package so much. Orchid Flasks in the UK might be another source: they do flasks from £10. (Uping the budget/sharing big flasks might mean we could find different sources in the 3 areas for the same thing)

3) 'We all want to grow from flask together' In this case maybe getting exactly the same thing isn't as important? For example, it would be possible to get phaleanopsis/doritanopsis flasks in the EU and US within budget (US I've found hybrids for $20 and $25, Paramount in Canada do flasks, but don't have any in at the moments...). Phals would be good as they are generally quick growing. I've heard tolumnias are too. Paphs should be possible, but slower growing. Don't know much about cats, but should think we could find them.

A FYI: Meyers in the States reckon it's better to send plants deflasked with no medium in sealed sterile baggies than to send them flasked. So one person splitting and sending on a large flask would be possible, just a lot of bother for them! And the recipients would still need to treat them as recently deflasked.

PS: I know there's also the question of flasked and/or seedlings. My feeling on that is if you are going to get plants that young you might as well deflask them yourself and get several for the money! And in some ways hardened seedlings won't be different to normal projects, except it will be a lot longer for them to flower! If we get them from flask/baggie and go through hardening them it adds something different to the project.

I KNOW this nursery hasn't the best of reputations, but want to say I got the 2 seedlings in the link. They came in a padded envelope and were literally flat ! They both survived and have done well - its been about a year.

Royal Orchid Club - L375 Orchid Plant-S Phal Golden Peoker X

The reason why I mention them is that the nursery where they get their plants is in Malaysia I believe. I could find the website but can't now. Will keep looking. If I remember correctly, they mailed world-wide.
They have a lot of seedlings and compots. The seedlings are cheap, including postage.

Just another option. Which is not to say RowanG hasn't done an excellent job......its just that I thought of this place because I just repotted the seedlings I had bought.

Hell no to that supplier for anything. They have a reputation for a reason.

Lol. If you could find out the asian suplier I guess it could be an option for my 2)? If cheap enough. (And if they aren't as bad as the end seller!)

I still think we need to thrash out a bit more what we want from this: do people like the idea of growing from flask? Would people pay a little more? Have we got people who could take a group order and distribute it on (and maybe split flasks?) Would people be happy growing similar things (eg 'phals' or 'tolumnias') or do they really want to grow all the same?

Bali Orchid garden I think posts their flasks almost anywhere, flasks are about $30 and they supply phytos if needed relatively cheaply. I believe they can put up to 6 flasks on a single phyto cert so people within the same international area could order to one address and then on mail to save on extra phytos..

Well, no-ones really answering, but since folks seem to be suggesting sources I guess right now people definitely want to do flasks and are open to the hassles of ordering internationally *G*

So is there anyone up to the hassles of being reciever and redistributer for their region?

---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------

Greengarden, I was just looking at the Bali Orchid Garden site: they say they do large flasks (30-50 plants) and smaller ones (10-20). Have you any idea which your price is for? If the 10-20 ones are cheaper that could be another one that would possibly be cheap enough not to have to split flasks for re-distribution.

I sent Bali Gardens an e-mail asking them the total cost to send to UK/Europe, USA/Canada and Australia - for the small flask. Let see what they say.
I think USA may be a problem because the nursery I bought from receives its consignments from Malaysia and then mails from within the USA. I have received plants direct from China without any problems though.

and this is what they said:

Hello Tony
Thank you for your email.
At present we can not post flasks from Indonesia because of worries about gel in the containers!!
I will be bringing flasks to Australia each visit I make about every two months so could bring what you want to here and then post on for you. My next trip will be in about two weeks.
Are you actually wanting them to go to three countries?
My office in Bali will let you know what is available and cost of flasks. Postage from Australia would be separate.
Kind regards

David Dowd
Managing Director
Bali Orchid Garden

Oh bum! They were posting everywhere but I think they were having issues with twit customs officers who didn't understand that the black in the agar was just charcoal and not mould! When I brought mine back I had to hassle until i found one that actually knew their stuff enough to realise it was fine.

Found something I was drooling over...

1 FLASK OF DPTS. KENNET SCHUBERT X PHALAENOPSIS CORNU-CERVI RED, ORCHID PLANT | eBay

But looked just now and they are saying they ship without phytosanitary!!!! Sure it didn't say that yesterday! Oh well, I can't really afford it anyway!

---------- Post added at 08:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------

PS: I've not heard back from Roelke, but it took a while to get a reply to my last email too.

It is looking to me that realistically, unless something really good comes up, we are looking at choosing a large category so that people can buy cheaply within their region. Eg 'Phaleanopsis' and let people get a species or hybrid.

Unless we have people in each region willing to take on the hassle and risk of getting a large flask from someone like Ecuagenera and splitting it. Anyone? My feeling it that that would mean receiving the flask and when they de-flask imediately bagging and sending on some of the seedlings that day. Payment could be a hassle.

Really want to see this happen, so... right now, unless something comes up it seems to me we have two solutions on the table:

A) Have a general category such as tolumnia, phals, paphs or cats and let people get what they want from that. Definitely the simplest option!
B) Get what we want from a seller who goes to all 3 regions, such as Ecuagenera. In this case I don't think it has to be flasks/seedlings? This might depend on having someone willing to pick up and send on stuff (though some sellers will send from a show within a region)

I basically think A is the better option for a flask/seedling project. However, to get the ball rolling if people prefer B then I'd be willing to pick up and send on flasks to the EU from London Orchid show. However I don't think I could take on splitting and individually packing parts of a flask, or sending plants.

Anyone else willing to be an 'agent'?

Would people be happy with alternative plans A and B?

Personally I think A would be much simpler. It doesn't matter where you are and also gives people the option of choosing something that takes their fancy within the broader category. Personally I'd prefer not paphs as they are prohibitively expensive here and a flask would cost me an arm and a leg but any other easily accessible genus would be fine with me.

How about something very diverse so we can show off some really interesting and different specimens at the end, Bulbophyllum might be a good option...

Still, just picking a genera is really general... Maybe for now we go back to a previous idea of selecting 3-4 similar plants as being equal to one candidate plant. I had already researched some and I'm going to start again now. That way I have lots of time to search for things and when the project starts there will already be a list of verified options. Or go back to a C/I/W project.

And then we do a flask seedling thing as a side project.

I guess I was just thinking that for those of us who live a bit further afield obtaining flasks can be a pretty challenging prospect. I don't know of anyone near me other than myself who does flasking and the larger growers that do sell flasks operate within a pretty small range of species so I may be pretty limited in being able to access the sort of species you guys can get. I have no trouble at all getting my hands on flasks of Aussie natives but you guys would have a challenge getting them I would guess :D

---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 AM ----------

Maybe if you start a list I could try and see whether any of them are available over here and if not I could propose another similiar one to add to the list.

Unfotunately no matter what the project, australians (and others) are always limited by what they can get in their country. The usual project policy is to only insure that plants are available in US, Canada and Europe, since 99% of the participants are from there. And it's alerady difficult enough like that...

Had you started a list somewhere in the thread? I tried to find it but couldn't so wasn't sure if there was one and I missed it or if it wasn't there... Thought I'd have a look and see what the suggestions were, you never know, one that I can get might be on there. No sense worrying about it if it's available! :) Regardless if I can't get the planned one I'll just find something similiar and do my own in house project and follow the progress of others.