Phalaenopsis damaged and looks like dying but won't drop the flowers
 

Is my beloved orchid dying?

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I was away for 5 weeks and had a friend coming over to water my plants, including a very healthy, beautiful, vibrant Phalaenopsis, which was happily growing and blooming constantly by this window for the past 1 1/2 year. Despite my written instructions to make sure that my friend never leaves water in the orchid pot and does not water more than once a week maximum, she somehow read it the other way around and not only overwatered it but made sure that she always leaves a lot of water in the pot. On top of that, when she started seeing that my orchid was getting sick - because of the overwatering - she panicked and watererd some more plus started applying a spray mist. When I returned, the leaves had lost their strength, were no longer firm and shiny and two of the bottom ones had turned yellow. The flowers had still not dropped, but they've been frail-looking.

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Not knowing what to do, I did not watered at all for approximately 10 days and then took it out of the pot to examine it. A lot of the roots had gone paper-thin and on many of them the bark had gotten so attached it was like it had been glued. After reading posts in this forum I soaked the roots in water, trimmed off the roots that looked dead, separated the bark from those roots that seemed glued and put it back into the same pot. Since then the 2 bottom leaves fell off

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and the remaining leaves seem to be getting worse and worse.

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[The little burnt spot that you may be able to see on the left top leaf was there long before these problems started, probably from water that stayed on the leaf and caused sunburn...?]

Last week, I thought I detected some mould on 2 roots and after I bought some new bark mixture I cut off those roots

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and added only a little bit of the new mixture to the old because the new mixture was very damp and I was afraid I would create more problems.

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I don't know what I should be doing. I really love this plant and truly care about it and want to do all I can to help it stay alive. Within a year and a half it grew three spikes with beautiful flowers and up uintil August it was on full bloom. Any advice would be so appreciated. In the past 3 weeks it has only been watered once but it's not dropping off the flowers and it makes me think that the orchid is spending all of its energy on preserving the flowers which in turn damages the leaves... Also, I've just noticed these marks on the spike which didn't use to exist about a week ago.

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What should I do to help my plant?


Thanks so much in advance.

melimelo, please keep in mind that I'm a beginner and wait for the experienced members to reply. :)
I would get a smaller pot with very good drainage, get new bark mix and soak that for about 24 hrs. with a drop of K-L-N (a root stimulant) added to the water. Then I would cut off all spikes, take the Phal. out of the pot and inspect the roots, cutting off all dead, hollow, mushy roots and wash remaining roots under running water. After draining and rinsing the bark mix, I would repot in the smaller pot, trying to position the plant so I can see at least one root (told you I was a beginner :lol:). I find it very helpful to put a scewer down in the pot, pulling it out periodically to check the moisture content of the medium, watering when it approaches dryness. After all of that, I would keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
Good luck with your Phal. :)

Melimelo, you should cut the flower stalk, and keep the humidity around the leaves high (especially at night). When plants open stomata, moisture get lost from the leaf, and you want to minimize evaporation. Phalaenopsis is something called a CAM plant, and they open the stomata mainly during the night.

You could put it in an aquarium, or put a dome like things on top of it.

Then you should water normally (using skewer method or something). It may drop quite a few leaves to make new roots, but hopefully it has enough energy left to recover the root system.

When you repotted, how many healthy roots are left? So you reused old bark and added a little bit of new one? If you haven't repotted 1.5 years, it would be a good time to repot with fresh media.

Thank you, Carpe Diem and Naoki.


Carpe Diem, for a ''beginner'' that was a very sophisticated and thorough reply! Is the root stimulant the same as ''orchid food''? [see, these kind of questions really tell the ''beginners'' from the beginners! :D ]


Naoki, it has left 4 or 5 roots probably. Whether they're healthy or not, I'm not really sure, but I thought that they still had 'flesh' in them and some 'stiffness' when I examined them. It is in its original mix, i.e. bark, as I was planning to repot it upon my return and once the flowers would fell off, but given the condition in which I found it I have been quite ambivalent about messing with. Plus, an assistant at a flower shop told me not to do anything until the flowers fell off 'cause I would cause more damage... Would you suggest that I cut off the spike/stem/stalk [don't really know what the right term is] that has the flowers on?


It is hard to know how much of my 'messing' with the orchid is helping the plant and how much is doing damage, so thank you both for your replies.

melimelo, thanks for the compliment. :blushing:
K-L-N is a hormone for root growth and used when transplanting or rooting new cuttings. I don't use it at all when the plant has a good root system. There are different brands of rooting hormones on the market, any of them will do. I use 1/2 the amount recommended on the label.
I give a weak solution of orchid food in 3 successive waterings and flush with clear water on the 4th watering, to get rid of any fertilizer salts that may have accumilated. Again, I use 1/2 the amount recommended on the label.
Although the spike question was directed at Naoki, I would like to suggest cutting the spike now, so the plant can direct all energy towards growing new roots and leaves. I wonder why the sales person thought it would hurt the plant to cut the flowering spike. :scratchhead:
Keep hanging around the OB and soon you'll be as smart as I am. :rofl: Seriously though, what I know about orchids I've learnt here on the OB, where everyone shares their knowledge and experiences freely and generously. I have a long way to go, but will have help from a great bunch of people. :bowing

If it has 4-5 roots, you should be able to save it pretty easily. I wonder then why it is so dehydrated. Did the roots have growing tips (usually greenish or reddish, about 5mm-1.5cm)?

As Carpe said, definitely cut the stem. You want to let it use all energy to recover root system. Repotting it will increase the chance of saving it. But watch out for the watering schedule. The new bark doesn't retain water well, so you'll probably need to water more frequently.

What Carpe is talking about is this:
Amazon.com: Dyna-Gro K-l-n Rooting Concentrate Kln-008 0.009-0.011-0.006, 8-Ounce: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Super-thrive is similar product. Amazon.com: Superthrive 4oz: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Also cold-processed Kelp extracts contain natural hormones. e.g. Amazon.com: Organicare Seaplex Plant Supplement, 1-Quart: Patio, Lawn & Garden

They may help, and I would use it.

But retention of air humidity is one of main things you should try to do. What's the RH in your area?

Okay, I'll cut off that stem today and put the orchid in the new bark mix. I'll take a photo of the roots while doing this so you can diagnose!

Last week I bought Westland Orchid Plant Food [the forum does not allow me to put the amazon link] ''compound fluid fertiliser 3-1.5-4.5'', which I haven't used yet. Do you think this would do or should I buy Superthrive, which, luckily, I found on Amazon.uk?

Unfortunately, in my area there isn't much of orchid expertise... even finding bark mix was a difficult task.

As for relative humidity, living in Ireland we're quite damp here! That being said, indoor levels are certainly lower, even though I air the house daily and I have a humidifier in the same room as the orchid and try to keep humidity to around 55.

Naoki, regarding why it looks so dehydrated, my sense is that even the roots that I call healthy are quite injured. They were certainly in better shape than the ones I cut off, but still not really full and fleshy. Maybe the pictures could give you a sense of what they're like.

Carpe Diem, yes, OB looks like an amazing forum, I'm so glad I've found it!

I have never used super thrive, but read on the OB that too much of it has adverse effects on the plant.
The fertilizer sounds fine. When you used that up, maybe you should replace it with a 20-20-20 orchid food. It is a good, balanced fertilizer.
I think the humidifier in the room should do the trick.
I can get bark from my local Florist, but everything else I have to buy from the Net. Guess there are not alot of people growing orchids in this climate. :lol:

Do you have a hydroponic store nearby?

Findish, not me, I live in the boonies. lol

Carpe is right, if you use too much hormone products, I can see that it will cause the problems (same for human). For the difference between K-L-N and superthrive, see Ray's post here:

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...e-k-l-n-2.html

The fertilizer you got gives nutrients, and it is different from plant hormone products. So I would try superthrive in addition to fertilizer. I usually try not to use fertilizer when the root system of a plant is messed up, though. But this may not be based on science.

55% is ok for many healthy orchids, but you might want to raise it to 70-80% (at night) since it has a weak root system. If you are refering to 55% day time, it is probably OK. Usually the RH at night is higher than the day time RH because of the lower temperature at night. Maybe you can put a big plastic bag (or a bucket) on it at night? Or raise the humidifier setting a little higher for 3 weeks or so?

Photos of roots will help other people to give you more suggestions.

So... I cut the stem, trimmed of some more dead roots and repotted in the new bark mix and in a smaller pot [8.5 cm diameter from the previous 12.5]. I sincerely hope that when you see the pictures you won't think I've created more damage than what had already been done by my friend.


This is what she [my orchid is female to me!] looked like when I took her out of the pot
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and close shot of the roots
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and the crown
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I cut the stem and as you can see it looked pretty healthy
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and I trimmed this root, which surprised me with how green it was inside, despite the dry look on the outside
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but then again you can see some mould on one of the dead roots I cut
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So, this is what my poor thing looked like when I was done with it and I so hope I didn't cause more damage
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and into the new bark mix and pot.
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It amazes me how many roots this plant had - after having cut so many it still has over 7 roots left. It just makes me sad to think of how healthy and happy it was up until a few weeks ago and how injured I found it and is now...


So what do you think? Does it look like it may surnive? And is there anything else I should be doing at this stage or rather leave the plant in peace to recuperate itself?


Again, many thanks for your help this far.


Findish, I had to google what a hydroponic store is (!) and the answer is, no, there's none nearby where I live.

Just for future reference, healthy roots are firm and it doesn't matter what color they are as long as they are firm. If they are squishy and or hollow they are dead. You can also cut the spikes all the way off. I always cut my spikes after they are done blooming even if the spike is still green. Blooming takes a lot of energy so I like to allow my plant to rest and grow new leaves and roots. Some people cut the spike back to a node and try and get the plant to branch and bloom again off the old spike but for the reasons above I don't let my plants do this. I would cut those spikes all the way off so the plant doesn't try and branch from one of the nodes. Your plant needs to put all its energy into new roots and leaves not flowers. Also I would try and find some KLN or SuperThrive to help your plant with root growth. I would also hold off on the fertilizer until you see new growth like leaves or roots. Good luck!

The roots look somewhat shriveled, but still green inside. Lots of roots too! I don't know if the shriveled roots will plump up again, but she should put out new roots.
Nothing more to do, just be careful not to overwater!
Good luck and keep us posted! :)

Looks like that you can probably save it. In the last to 2nd photo, one of the roots seems to have small green tip (left bottom). Also, the 2nd photo shows a new root is starting to come out from the right side of the stem. The new bark looks funky (is it garden mulch?), but it probably works.

The temperature is unfortunately going down now. I'm not sure about the climate in the Ireland, but keeping the root area warm might give an additional help. I started to use something like this
for a couple phal seedlings which I want to boost during the winter.

Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MT10006 9-by-19-1/2-Inch Seedling Heat Mat: Patio, Lawn & Garden

But yours will probably recover without this. For me, I'm trying sphag moss culture for tiny seedlings, and it doesn't dry out quick enough in the fall, winter, & spring (it works well in the summer). A forum member suggested to put the heat pad under the pots. I started to use it a couple weeks ago (it's almost winter in Alaska), and it seems to help in drying sphag moss, and their growth also re-accelerated.

melimelo-

I rescued a NoID Phal from a garbage pile at the grocery store. It looked almost as sad as yours.
August 13 removed from the soggy bark and repotted into a deli container of hydroton from the hydroponic store.

18 August two yellowed leaves had fallen, the buds had all opened and the remaining leaves plumped up.

Today the blossoms are still tightly attached to the spike and the leaves are stiffly beautiful.

I tried attaching photos, but no joy.
findish

I think the bark looks weird too. If it is garden mulch I wouldn't use it. Many people have told me not to use it because it hasn't been processed like orchid bark.

Hmmm, I wonder why. If garden mulch doesn't contain weird chemical (either added by human, or excreted from the tree), and if the pH of the mulch isn't extreme, it should work. There are some picky plants, but hybrid Phal should be easy. Garden mulch may decay quicker, but it should be ok if you are repotting every year. Garden mulch is less homogeneous in size, so the air space around the root might be smaller. But you just have to adjust the watering so that you don't suffocate the roots.

I think that orchids from Carter & Holmes seem to be grown in more mulch-like media than the traditional fir bark. I've seen other people use garden mulch for orchids, but I haven't tried it yet.

Thanks everyone for your responses! I'll post pictures IF my little plant makes it through this rough patch.

I thought so, too, that the bark mix looked kind of weird. When I went to the store, they only had bark mix in bags of about 1 meter high, whatever capacity that would be in litres. So the assistant, very kindly, suggested that he gives me some mix which was not packed and was from a huge pile kept outdoors. He told me that it's really good bark mix [and he didn't even charge me], but I thought that in comparison to the bark mix that my orchid was originally in, this didn't look so chunky and solid, plus was very very moist. I don't know how else to describe it and I don't know if it is mulch. I was hesitant about putting it, that's why I only used a bit on my first venture to repot the orchid. But after yesterday, my beloved plant is wholly in there.

Do you think I should go find a different mix, specifically for orchids? As I said, there isn't that much expertise where I live, but maybe Amazon.uk would have some. But then again, won't it be too upsetting for the plant to be taken out of the pot for the 3rd time in a month?

I feel I've so many questions and probably really naive ones!

As for the roots, yes, most of them looked shrivelled and hollow rather than squishy, and I didn't cut any of those that looked firm still, but I might have left a couple that looked hollow since I wasn't too sure whether they were dead or not.

You can stick a skewer and check how long it takes to make the mix completely dry. If it dries completely within a week or so, it is probably ok. I'm not talking about the dry surface of the pot (that's why you need a skewer or something in the pot). Skewer use for watering of orchids - Orchid Forum Orchid Care

It does look like garden mulch. It contains shredded wood (xylem part) in addition to bark, so it could retain moisture longer.

On the other hand, if you want to use more conventional bark, you can repot it again. Hybrid phals don't seem to mind repotting too much. If you are getting bark from amazon or some place, you probably want to go with "medium" sized bark (something like 1.5-2cm).

I'm in a relatively small town, but a pet store which sells reptiles have barks suitable for orchids.

I've used superthrive in the past on a rescue plant. I found that after soaking the central stem and roots for 20 minutes (per the instructions) and adding a plant heat mat that the root development really took off for this plant. I started seeing root development within a week and a half. Since then I've utilized superthrive whenever I re-pot, have a phal in trouble, and once every 4th time I water for my healthy plants. The key is in moderation, I use a weak mix to help guard against potential mutation from use. If you do decide to purchase superthrive I highly recommend keeping it refrigerated after opening as this extends the life of the product significantly. Goodluck with your phal!

before and after Phal rescue
 

melimelo

the photos are five days apart of the same plant

Findish's ShowCase :: In progress #9

Findish's ShowCase :: #9

Good point about refrigeration, I learned it from Ray. Just for clarification, it is possible, but unlikely that the plant hormone causes genetic "mutation". The problem is more likely to be physiological disorder, which can be fixed once you stop overdoping. Genetic mutations aren't easily reversible.

It's looking good, Findish!

Greetings! :waving I too live in Ireland, and it is very difficult to find orchid supplies.

As naoki mentioned earlier, a good place to find bark and media suitable for orchids are pet stores that sell reptiles. Reptile bark is great for orchids! I prefer to use it over the bags of 'orchid compost' you get at garden centres.

Speaking of garden centres, one thing you can get from them is Maxicrop seaweed extract. This is very, very, good for root development. Just a few drops in your water when watering should do. You can substitute this for Superthrive. You will have the advantage of not having to wait for it to arrive in the post.

I know hydroponics stores can look a little intimidating! I always feel uneasy going into one, but they generally stock specialist orchid supplies. If you are anywhere near Dublin there are several that you can visit.

I took a picture today, which might give you a better sense of what the bark mix is like now that it's dried. I think it dried out really quickly, so today I watered (after a week). I did use a skewer but not the right way... more so the "baking cake" way! I hadn't read first the post you linked, naoki, so I imagined that I was supposed to dip the skewer in the mix and see if it'll come out dry (you know, the way that you can tell the cake is done if no dough stays on the skewer!). At least now I've read the post and I'll know from now on.


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It's now a week since I cut the stem with the flowers. I'm keeping the humidity high and I use a mist spray, nearly every day (just once, in the morning). From looking at the leaves, I don't see any signs of reviving, but maybe it's too soon... At least, I can see 3 roots that are nearly coming out of the pot and they are firm and when I watered they turned green (but now back to grey-ish).


Findish, your plant looks like it's doing great, well done!

NatalieS, so great to find a fellow islander! I've to confess that reptile shops wouldn't be my ideal place to walk in, but, alas, if I have to do it to save my little plant I'll face my fear and go! And thanks for suggesting products that I can find in stores locally, that's saving me from ordering from Amazon.

Thanks, Im Just Saying. I never thought of keeping my plant foods and supplements in the fridge, so will do from now on.

That's great, 3 new roots are already coming out! It will probably take a couple months to see if it's going to make it or not, but it looks promising.

Well, they're not new roots the ones I see; just 3 of the old but healthy ones that survived my friend's care and they seem to at least not be getting worse. There is a tiny little thing that "bursts" from the main part of the plant, which I think i first saw before I left for holidays and it is still there - doesn't seem to have grown but neither has it withered. My sense was that it would be a new spike but not sure. I'll try take a picture of it and post it here, as I'm sure some of you will know what it is and what it needs. :)