how to differentiate between laelia and cattleya
 

I have a number of unlabeled orchids in my care. At least two of them could be laelia species (old tags in a box). There are also a number of unlabeled plants that are most likely catt species or hybrids. The only old label I have for these is for empress bells, a famous old girl. The first plant is getting ready to bloom. One stalk has a cluster of four buds, another a cluster of three. I know there must be ways to tell laelias from catts, but my search in the forum didn't bring anything up. Any help on general rules? And I will post photos when the blooms open. Thanks

Look up the plants and flower picture in the internet according to the names written on the tags...You just have to wait until your plants flowers and then compare with the pictures...
With just the plants, its hard to distinguish Laelia from Cattleya.
You have to look at the whole plant and its bloom to its entirety... then you can tell...

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

I have just read the information from Camille:

http://www.manateeorchidsociety.com/...her%20Name.pdf

Laelias are now called Cattleyas

A large number of Laelias have been reclassified as Cattleyas, the most prominent is probably L. purpurata (now C. purpurata)
A number of Laelias remain, the most prominent L. anceps. Post photos when they bloom.

In large Laelias (crispa, purpurata, lobata, dark) the tip of the leaves is more rounded. In cattleyas the tip of the leaves are more pointed. By the time you apart easily.
The Laelias rupículas are small but the other Laelias as crispas, purpurata and dark are huge. I have a laelia crispa to the base of the bulb to the tip sheet gives almost 90cm.
I hope I have helped

Thank you
That was the information that was on the tip of my mind but wouldn't come out. Are there any hints to help differentiate between species and hybrids in the catt alliance?

Before I give you an answer that may make you mad, what are the two Laelia labels in your box? Depending on the names, it may be possible to give you an answer without seeing the flowers.

Now that you've done that, the way to tell the difference between Cattleya species and hybrids is this: if they don't look like species, they are hybrids. That's really the only way to tell species from hybrids in any genus. And even if they look like species, they may not be.

Right, and look at as many pictures of the species for they might have variations in form and variations in hues...short compact or the long tall versions...I used to throw away tags...because they look nasty on pots in center pieces...but now I just bury then deep inside the pot ...when I joined this forum I didnt realize the names are very important or else everything will be just NOIDS...I have no problem with that but I get reprimanded and corrected even if I have a tag...someone will always say your orchid is not an orchid but a NOID...they just have their kicks on doing that without even giving you any proofs at all except their personal opinions...
I suggest you find out for yourself the real truth and listen to your instincs...

You can also post pics here on the OB and people will tell what species you have or if its a hybrid. There are some very knowledgable people here who definitely know their stuff.

Thank you all. I know I need to be patient and post pictures as things flower, but I also would feel silly if there were easy rules that I didn't bother to find out about. These plants have been neglected and have not flowered for years. Many of them may be and some of them surely are plants collected in Mexico in the 1970's. It's like waiting to open christmas presents sitting right in front of you, or trying to guess who-done-it while reading a mystery book. I imagine it will take years before I can get them all to bloom.

Sounds like a fun project! Good luck!

WOW! I am excited to see the flowers...Mexican orchids from the 70's...

With the new reclassifications, scientifically the only real way is by counting the pollina (8).

Some schombs have moved to laelias, while others to the myrmecophila, and yet others back to catts. So the question then pegs, is was it a laelia to start with?

This might help....

Laelia Lindley 1831 SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Epidendreae, SUBTRIBE Laeliinae.

Laelia was first described by John Lindley in 1831 and Schlechter revised it in 1917 by dividing the genus to 7 subsections.

1. Cattleyodes- the species that resemble Cattleya yet have 8 pollina such as Laelia purpurata.

2.Hadrolaelia- Have lips with distinctive crests and keels as well as heteroblastic psuedobulbs such as Laelia pumila.

3.Laelia- has homoblastic psuedobulbs such as Laelia speciosa.

4. Microlaelia- same as section 3 except for sepals and petals are of equal size such as Laelia lundii.

5. Cyrtolaelia- they are rupicolious or rock growing and have a narrow lip and the flower color is most often yellow to orange red such as Laelia cinnabarina.

6.Podolaelia- has sheaths and an articulated stem such as Laelia anceps.

7. Calolaelia- has a single species, Laelia superbiens, which has now been moved to Schomburgkia.

...or not..:biggrin:

I guess I asked for it, huh? Luckily I have a dear friend who is a horticulturist (former contributing editor for Sunset) who helps us sort out the native garden here.I think he would enjoy trying to help me translate all this info. even though he is not an orchid man. He was a family friend of the original collector, also. I just learned today that the greenhouse was vandalized years ago and many orchids were dumped out in the woods and not found till too late so I don't know how many of the old orchids are still here. Some, I hope.

I just read what Got Ants said.Laelia have 8, Catts. have 4.

Is there any way to show the pollinia in a photo? I should have enough flowers that one could be dissected if necessary.

That's actually what the old classification is based on.

The Laelia's are from Mexico and are only distantly related to the other South American species that are now called Cattleya (still I often call them Laelia).

The orchid I have been writing about has bloomed. I have posted pictures at site below. Please help me to identify.
Flickr: noble's memory's Photostream

If this was a species, my guess would be Laelia crispa.

why crispa over purpurata

The coloration of the lip, as well as the shape of the lip (narrower, a more pointed tip and ruffled edges) is much more characteristic of crispa than purpurata. Here is a pic of my purpurata that I had before I moved to Texas from Hawaii for comparison:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3362/3...b8b10a4d_z.jpg
Laelia purpurata 6-16-2009 by Isurus79, on Flickr

L. crispa flowers are also a bit smaller than purpurata.

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------

P.S. That is of course, if your plant is actually a species and not a hybrid. A purpurata x crispa hybrid would be tough to tell apart from a crispa just by photos like this. It seems your plant is pretty large too, which makes me wonder if it is only crispa.

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

P.P.S- Can we get another pic when the flower open more fully?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5011/...8b8635af98.jpg

This my plant bloomed one year after I did a cut flower and now waiting for a new flowering, is with new shoots.


In Brazil epiphytic species or sometimes rupicolous with a solitary leaf, growing in tall trees or groups of massive rocks at altitudes from 800 to 1500 meters, grooved pseudobulbs with a single apical subereta, oblong-lanceolate, obtuse or notched at the apex leaf that blooms mostly in the summer on a 12 "[30 cm] long, racemose inflorescence arising from a large sheath flattened, with 4-9 fragrant, showy, long-lasting flowers.

Synonyms Bletia crispa [Lindley] Rchb.f 1861; Brasilaelia crispa Lindl.) Campacci 2006 (; * Cattleya crispa Lindley 1828; reflex Cattleya parm. Ex Walp. Ex Walp. In 1861; Hadrolaelia crispa (Lindl.) Chiron & VPCastro 2002; Laelia crispa var reflex Rchb.f 1854; Sophronitis crispa (Lindl.) C. Berg & MW Chase 2000 1861; Hadrolaelia crispa (Lindl.) Chiron & VPCastro 2002; Laelia crispa var reflex Rchb.f 1854; Sophronitis crispa (Lindl.) C . Berg & MW Chase 2000