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MASDEVALLIA problems. Help!
Ok, I did it again. I went and bought Masdevallia. One genera I have never had luck with, but I was determined to try again. Well, now I have (2) Mounted Masdevallia decumana.
On one plant, all of the leaves began having brown spots, black spots, yellowing, pitting, blah blah blah ... here we go again! So, can someone help me with what this problem is? Black spot, Brown spot, black rot, brown rot??? Causes? To Wet? To Cold? Low Humidity? High Temp? I have them growing on a Windowsill (may be a problem) with a fan and a humidifier. Any help is appreciated ..... |
I've heard that brown/black spotting can be too warm for masdies.
Mine did that when I first had them and kept them in the house. I was advised they were too warm and built a greenhouse to keep them in which I keep as a cool growing area. I've not had the problem since. Humidity is also higher in there, but I think low humidity was the cause of different problems (with new leaves not opening up properly). Of course it's difficult to say without seeing the spots, but these were brown/black pits, mostly on the underside of the leaves, but could appear on the upper side as well. |
As Rosie said, the only time I got spots which sound like yours (pics would help) was when it got warmer than I wanted for the masdies. I only have 2 and the one was worse than the other. I treated them with some brown Listerine as we can't get Physan here and it didn't seem to spread. I am only now able to cut a few of those unsightly leaves off as they age and new ones are appearing healthy and green. I always had fairly high humidity so I don't think lack of it was a problem. It may have been too much combined with warm conditions. I just checked OrchidWiz and decumana is a real cool grower. 67-70F daytime and 48 to 52 at night year round with high humidity of around 80%. Maybe you should try a hybrid with a bit more warmth tolerance and sometimes hybrids just have more vigor and adapt easier to different conditions.
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3rd that it can be the warmth issue.
However... You didn't mention the temperatures you grow yours at... If you feel temperature isn't the problem, then all I have to say is, disinfect your plants. If they're coming from out of the country, disinfect them. Even if they're coming from a US nursery, you may want to consider disinfecting them. Particularly if you think the place wasn't thorough enough with the debugging. Some Physan 20, potassium permanganate, and Betadine solution does wonders for cleaning your plants. A 20 - 30 min soak in each solution works great! You may also want to check the roots. Root damage can also lead to bad looking leaves if everything else checks out. I generally don't like mounting Masdevallias, particularly if you're growing in an area that is somewhat arid. The roots can dry out very quickly. If you're growing them in a cool house or a modified terrarium, then you can mount them. |
I got these 2 Masdevallia mounted because I have no room for any more potted Orchids ----
"Warmth" is not the issue - my temps are quite cool for them, and the Humidity is fine too, so I'm totally baffled as to what the real problem is here with these orchids. Mounted orchids 'dry out' very quickly, but I do have a humidifier within 12-inches of these plants. I guess my real question is: "What the heck is the real problem with growing Masdevallia anyhow" ? .... What do they really want ???? |
Where are you getting them from? If you don't mind me asking.
Masd decumana seems to be able to tolerate quite a range of temperatures as it comes from 1,000 m - 2,500 m in the Andes. You should be able to do fine with these. |
I got these Masd. decumana from ANDY'S ORCHIDS.
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Well...
Andy's gets his from Ecuagenera. Plants from Ecuagenera need to be treated thoroughly before introduction into the collection. You might wanna try disinfecting them. They could be relatively recent imports or if they've been with Andy's for a while, they could just have had some die hard spores. Not sure which of the two scenarios it is, but it doesn't hurt to disinfect your plants. Andy's mounted plants also tend to have quite a lot of moss on the mounts too. You may want to consider taking a look at the roots to see if they're not rotted out. You don't mention how long you've had the Masd decumanata for, but I think it's important to mention it so I can sort of gauge where some issues may lie. I'd also like to know how often you water these guys too. Another thing that might help is a photo. Without a photo, this is the best guess I can really make. I have Masdevallias that come from similar elevations as the Masdevallia decumana and they're doing superbly well outdoors here in SoCal. They are potted though. Yes, they are also disinfected. The ones that come from slightly higher elevations are the ones that are really suffering for me right now. |
Hey Philip:
I've had these 2 Masd. decumana for exactly 2-days. They arrived on Tuesday from ANDY'S. One of them was in full bloom when I unpacked it. Gorgeous. Within 24-hours the leaves started to spot, yellow, pit and obviously become stressed. It's been the same with every mounted Masdevella I've ever grown - a few years ago I had 4 mounted Masdies arrive from ANDY'S. The same thing happened. I lost all 4 plants. And it was a huge financial loss, as the plants were not cheap. Problem is I think I need to stay clear of SPECIES and stick with more 'reliable' Masdevallia hybrids that are potted and not mounted ! PATRICK |
Masdevallia decumana is among the ´difficult to grow´ Masdevallias in my private experience. Other species like floribunda, barleana, bicolor, tovarensis and many more are easier. And every changing of climate and growing conditions plus the transport is stress for these delicate plants. It doesn´t mean that you can´t grow masdies on your windowsill, but eventually some hardier species will bring you more fun.
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Spotting shouldn't be that quick if it's from short term shipping stress! This kinda stuff happens when they're recent imports from out of the country or from plants with severely compromised root systems. I can show you a photo of some of my Masdevallias that come from roughly similar elevation ranges. None of them have blemishes. Like I said, the ones that I own that are from elevations starting from around 2,200 m are the ones suffering. Quote:
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I don't think species is the issue. I've had species Masdevallias grow just as vigorously as hybrid Masdevallias. I recommend a thorough disinfection of your plant asap. Check for root damage. Like I said, I tend to not like how much moss the mounted Masdevallias from Andy's has. You could afford to remove a few strands. If you're watering everyday, I recommend cutting back on your watering. |
Philip -
Thanks. You've been a big help - can you email me at Denman55@yahoo.com so I can continue this conversation with you ..... I received (2) Masd. Highland Fling yesterday from J & L Orchids. They are potted. I grow predominantly Paphs and Phrags, with Aerangis and Angraecum. I got the Masd. decumana because I really am determined to find a Masdevallia that will grow in my enviornment, and refuse to believe there isn't one out there, species or Hybrid. I will try and seek out the roots on the mounted decumana, but like you said, they are tight, heavily mossed plants and the roots aren't even visable. I think initially here, the "Cold and Wet" didn't do the plants alot of good when they arrived. Being on a windowsill presents all sorts of problems with cold drafts, adding fans and humidity, with wet moss = disaster, I think. Don't you agree ?? |
Cold and wet is no good for any Masdevallia.
Cold and moist is great for higher elevation Masdevallias that come from 2,200 m and up! Of course warmth will kill these in a heartbeat. Masd. decumana actually appreciate cool - warm temperatures! Your Masdevallia decumana is actually more warmth tolerant than my Masd andreettaeana. I finally figured out what went wrong with the first few tries with my Masd. andreettaeana, and it exhibited the same problems yours did... After thorough disinfection, both specimens of Masd andreettaeana are in fact fairly warmth tolerant and very hardy! This thing never seems to stop blooming!!! |
Like I said, Philip, I really do not understand what happened so quickly with these 2 plants ..... I cut off the 'diseased' leaves.
I guess moving forward, I'm not exactly sure how to grow these two plants ......in terms of Temps, Humidity. Any ideas? |
1. Try and find one that is potted. Clay pot is preferred, just in case warmth can cause an issue. Cold temperatures that don't approach freezing obviously won't phase Masd. decumana.
2. Once you can locate a potted one, see if you can spot if the roots are damaged or not. Even reputable sellers can unwittingly sell a plant with a terrible root system. 3. Humidity should be around 60% - 100%. As you can see, that's a pretty forgiving range! 4. Temperatures depend on your Masdevallia species! Which ones are you really interested in? I'm also assuming you want to pick ones that don't need to be grown in a refrigeration unit during the warm summers! 5. Light should be bright shade. 6. I would also try to disinfect your new arrivals, just in case. ---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ---------- You know what... Here's a good suggestion for a beginner's Masdevallia... It was one of my first species Masdevallias... Masd princeps Great large plant, with great large flowers. I think this one should do wonderfully for you. Second runner up would be: Masd ayacabana |
Ok, well let's discuss my growing area:
I grow all of my orchids in my Bedroom, on 3 large windowsills. I have 50 Paphs and Phrags, and mounted Aerangis and Angraecum. I have SE and SW light exposures - 1 window is SE, receiving morning sunlight - 2 windows are SW receiving Afternoon light - which is Bright Sun and Hot. I have to adjust the blinds accordingly even for the Paphs and Phrags or I will have significant 'bleaching' and 'burning' of leaves. I like the LARGE Flowered Masdevallia. The problem with the initial (4) Masdies that I got from ANDY's was that they were all quite small-flowered. Only one was I able to see in bloom - Masd. herrardurea (sp). I think for the most part, the large-flowered Masdies are all Hybrids ..... ---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ---------- Funny, I just looked at ayacabana and thought...WOW! What a great Masdie. The princeps I found to be rather unattractive.... But even with that, I have not seen either plant available for Sale anywhere ..... |
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NeoNJ - you might want to take what euplusia said into consideration. Most Angraecoids grow on the intermediate to warm side. I don't usually grow Angraecoids, but I have for certain grown at least 1 species of Aerangis - Aerangis fastuosa. Depending on the Paph and Phrag, same thing... Some can be grown intermediate to warm. I only know of a few Paphs and Phrags that can tolerate cooler temperatures that ere on the side of those similar to Masdevallias. Paph micranthum, Paph armeniacum, and Paph malipoense being a few of them. Phrag bessae being one of the Phrags that I know of that may be able to tolerate Masdevallia type conditions. As far as I know of your growing conditions, it would help greatly if I knew the numerical values of your temperatures. |
If you have never tried growing them potted, then maybe you should give it a try. Mine seem very happy in sphagnum moss and a small pot. They should never dry out which I would be afraid of with mounting. Mine send up new growths at a fast rate. Both of mine came from Ecuagenera and were spotless and beautiful until I was at fault 6 months later by letting them get too warm in the summer as it is hard to keep them cool here. I have a fan and I read that the leaves should be moving slightly as an indication of how much moving air. They seem much happier in winter when I grow them at 65F in the day and 55 at night.
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I'm a little confused over Masd. tovarensis being listed - as I have read that this is a COOL growing Masdevallia...... No ?
What about HYBRIDS? Can you recommend any? As for Temps ----> Low of 51-F, High of 78-F As for Humidity -----> 53% to 80% |
I just noticed your post that you got 2 Masd. Highland Fling. That is one of the two that I have. It was barely spotted when the other (Machu Picchu) was very spotted from a little too warm I think. They grow side by side. I have only had it since last Feb. but it has grown well and tried to bloom 4 times last summer. The buds blasted (not sure why) and the one that would have opened got bitten off by my cat. At present it has shot up 6 bloom spikes so I am hopeful. This one seems to be fairly robust. It is potted in moss in a plastic pot although next time I re-pot it may go into a clay pot. They hate old potting medium as well.
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yeah, I just got the Masd. Highland Fling plants yesterday, so far so good - no leaf problems yet, they are in small 2-inch plastic pots and I can see that they have both bloomed previously. I'm keepin' my fingers crossed on these two !
Fortunately, my 2 Dogs don't like the taste of plants! |
Here in the Northeast of North America I think we are kidding ourselves if we try Masdies outside of an enclosed enviroment. Like you I tried several times and failed each time. Unless you can provide 70% RH or better along with a nice breeze they will struggle. Put them under a 5# pretzel container( the UTZ works well) if you don't want to put them in a tank. If you try to keep your room at 70% RH, you'll be scraping moss and mildew off the walls.
I grow mine now to some moderate sucess in the basement in an enclosed shelving unit. Bill |
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Hey NeoNJ, I'm here in Jersey as well, not that far from you. I currently have 7 masdevallia that are doing well for me here on a rack with a fluorescent light on them for 8 hours of the day. I have them potted in 2.5" clay pots with straight sphagnum. My bedroom (where I grow all my orchids) is constantly between 60-70% humidity (second hobby is fishkeeping, thus the cause of high humidity) and I let the plants dry slightly before each watering. Temps hang around 65F.
I haven't seen any blooms but the plants (both species and hybrids), but they do put out new growth well. I've gone through about 15 masdes and experimented with conditions such as light/ watering/ fertilizer/ etc. If I were you I'd start with some potted plants. Repot them upon arrival into small clay pots with straight sphagnum moss. Masde's hate foul medium and mine seem to appreciate a good repot once the medium begins to degrade. Set your plants somewhere away from drafts (such as on an end table or counter directly under a light source) and let the plants dry slightly before watering. I give mine a shot of Gro-More 20-20-20 Orchid fert every other watering. I feel the key is never letting the plants get "wet" or bone dry and to also keep the humidity up. I keep mine moist and water once a week when the medium just begins to feel dry midway down the pot. Best of luck! |
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I just checked Andy's site, and he does currently carry Masd ayacabana... Are you really into Masd ayacabana, or would you pass it up for some other Masdevallia? :evil: Recommendations for Masd hybrids: All Masd Sunset Jaguar lines. All Masd Copper Angel lines. Masd Dean Haas |
I just spoke with ANDY on the telephone - he seems to think the problem was a "cold" blast in his GH prior to shipment. I don't know.....
I'm sure there are smaller flowered Hybrids, but I am looking for the LARGE flowered Hybrids .... can you recommend any ???? Yes - I would definitely like to own the ayacabana, but unfortunatley Andy only has this Mounted, and not potted... |
All the hybrids I put on the list are decent sized flowers you can see easily.
Cold blast doing them in...? 2,500 m in the Andes is pretty cold, man ---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ---------- Wait a second... I've been to Andy's... He grows Masd decumana in a shade house that isn't enclosed. It's just wooden beams, benches, and some shade cloth. ---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ---------- I think it's just that it's mounted. You need to find one that's potted. |
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Huh? to cold for them in CALIFORNIA ???? Now I'm really confused ... I already have the Masd. Sunset Jaquar coming along with a Masd. Angel-something-or-other ....... |
He's close to the coastline. That's how he can get away with growing some of the cooler growers without a refrigeration unit in SoCal. The cool ocean breezes keeps things reasonably cooler than if he were further inland.
If it means anything, Encinitas is in San Diego County. So if you've ever been to San Diego, the climate is somewhat similar. He's growing stuff that comes from around 3,000 m (i.e. Masd davisii) in that same shade house. But I doubt it got too cold for them. Like I said, Masd decumana is reported to come from elevations as high as 2,500 m (according to the IOSPE). At 2,500 m in the Andes they can have occasional, light hail storms even in the tropics in countries such as Colombia! Bogotá - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Bogota, Colombia is a city in the high Andes at a little over 2,600 meters. The Wikipedia page on Bogota, Colombia shows some of the temperatures throughout the year. As you will see, some of the lowest temperatures of the year are somewhere in the 20's F to 30's F. On the flip side, at 1,000 m, it can get quite warm. I'd say the warmest it'd get at around 1,000 m is around 90 F (maybe even warmer than this). Assuming the IOSPE page on Masd decumana and the recorded elevation range on the page is correct, Masd decumana is very temperature tolerant! If the recorded elevation range posted on the IOSPE is correct, then if there are any problems with this plant, it'd have to be a cultural issue that has nothing to do with temperature. Here's my conclusion to what I have to say in regards to your Masd decumana based on what I know so far: 1.) Perhaps there's too much moss on the mount... 2.) Perhaps it's the fact that mounted Masdevallias in general will never do well for your growing environment... 3.) Maybe it just needs to be debugged... 4.) It could be that Masd decumana are sensitive plants as someone already pointed out, idk. 5.) Could also be a combination of the 4... You may also want to cross reference another source for the known recorded locations and elevations for Masd decumana just to be sure they really are found at an elevation range of 1,000 m - 2,500 m. |
Sorry for jumping in so late.
I grow a lot of masdevallias. Around 120 species and a lot of hybrids. Leaf spotting is temperature related. I encourage you to try species which are suited to your conditions. I also recommend growing in pots. Mounted in low humidity is very difficult and will take over your life. You can pot a mounted plant and it will grow off the mount. Just pot it mount and all, keeping the growing point level with the surface. Clay pots are bet for you situation. They will trick the roots into thinking it is cooler then it actually is. You can double pot them. Get two pots, one small and the other one size up. Pot the plant in the smaller pot, the slip that one in the bigger clay pot. The pot with the plant should not touch the bottom. Now sit both in a dish of water. The outer pot will wick water and cool by evaporative cooling, but the water in the dish will not touch the pot with the plant, so the media won't be sopping wet. Tovarensis is warm tolerant. Warm growers include Rex, datura, livingstoniana, infracta, princeps, Regina, ayabacana, floribunda. There are others, but these should be easy to find. Hybrids will be more tolerant, but avoid ones with a lot of cold growing species in the back ground. Spotted leopard will be challenging. Do you like orange? Lots of orange hybrid will be easier for you to grow. Highland fling was an excellent choice. |
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Masd ayacabana Masd datura Masd princeps Masd regina Masd rex Masd tovarensis The medium sized flowers are: Masd floribunda Masd infracta The smallest flowered one he mentions is: Masd livingstoneana There are actually a lot of warmth tolerant species, as Kyle mentioned. I'll throw in another one... Masd rolfeana But as far as those I recommend for beginners that are large flowered, I recommend the ones that are allied to Masd princeps: Masd ayacabana Masd princeps Masd regina If you don't mind the medium sized flowered species, I can name much, much more. |
LOL, thanks for the info - actually, i really do prefer the LARGE flowered Masdevallia.
I have alot of small-flowered Aerangis and Angraecum that don't quite do it for me ....... they are easy growers and bloomers, but don't really put on to much of a show - and they are all Mounted! How about some LARGE-FLOWERED Masdevallia HYBRIDS???? |
If you mean Masd princeps large, I have no idea.
The largest I've seen are Masd vietchiana large. And those happen to be the Masd Copper Angels, and the Masd Sunset Jaguars. Maybe Kyle knows more. |
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I don't recommend this one for a beginner, but since you've got some other Masdevallias, you could give one a go and see if it'll do well for you. Again, you'd have to buy one potted.
I wouldn't call it warmth tolerant necessarily speaking. It can grow in intermediate conditions for sure. I wouldn't grow Masd vietchiana warmer than 80 F - 85 F. ---------- Post added at 08:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 AM ---------- If you don't mind a Masdevallia that has flowers that are about 1 1/2" long, Masd pumila puts on a show, and may do very well for you. ---------- Post added at 08:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 AM ---------- You ever thought about growing the tubular flowered Masdevallias? They're brightly colored and have some good sized, and unusual flowers. |
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My friend has Machu Picchu and it is a good sized flower. I have it too but mine didn't bloom yet and hers did growing somewhere in her house! Mine is in a greenhouse where it gets cooler winter temps than can be provided in a home but I think I get a few warm spikes in summer that go higher than an air conditioned home. That's the one that got spotted on me last summer, but seems fine now other than a few leaves look like they have leprosy! It's a lovely dark pink or maroon. ---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ---------- Quote:
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Do you know anything about Masd. caudata? That one seems like a good sized flower and looks interesting. I am thinking of getting one, but am curious if it is a touchy one or not.[/QUOTE]
Masd. caudata can be very touchy! ---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ---------- Without trying to sound like I know everything (I'm still learning), perhaps I can add the following. Some of the advice given here was very good, IMO, especially: 1) the information about hybrids rather than species, i.e., that they are generally more tolerant - that is usually true across the board, and you might be better trying some hybrids before you get into species too much. 2) the recommendation re clay pots - they do, I think, help keep the plants a little cooler especially under your conditions - even in my wardian case there are a few that I grow in clay pots for that reason. 3) Masd. decumana can be a bit temperamental - mine will occasionally drop some leaves when it is not happy and while it blooms better on a mount, the plant seems to be happier in a pot. In addition, I'm going to make a few suggestions but don't want anyone to take them as law. I've grown orchids on windowsills, under lights, in a greenhouse, outdoors, and in my experience, getting things right is a matter of trial and error and experience. What works for one person doesn't always work for someone else and what works in one environment doesn't always work in another. 1) Temperature: someone mentioned the 78 was too high for M. decumana. It isn't necessarily. It gets that temperature here sometimes for weeks, but I think it is more a matter of some cooling at night when the temps are high (which we get). Also there's the fact that even to us, 78 can "feel" very different, muggy and oppressive or very comfortable and Masdevallias seem to like what we like. In connection with that I think that those who suggested temperature as the reason for leaf drop are probably correct. Temperature recommendations are very vague, but helpful in this regard, that "cool" growing orchids probably will not tolerate temperatures of 78 at all or only when everything else is ideal, while "warmth-tolerant" probably means that they will given the fact that everything else is right. In my experience most orchids are tolerant of a wide range of conditions if the environment is right, and many, especially species and smaller orchids are very intolerant of anything if the environment is not right. My wardian case is on the cool side of intermediate (I think), but I grow everything in there from warm-growing to cold growing plants and most do well. There are a few on the hot end of things that just will nhot tolerate the low temperatures, but the exceptions are few. 2) Humidity: even with a humidifier the humidity in an open room is really not very high and to get it higher the walls would probably be dripping. I do not really trust the readings one gets regarding humidity in a windowsill environment. 3) Air movement: Masdevallias like good air movement, but a fan blowing on them on a windowsill usually has somewhat of a desiccating effect. 4) When I stick my head into my wardian case it smells fresh and with the air movement and humidity the whole case feels like a very fresh spring morning. That is ideal, I think, and almost impossible to get on a windowsill. Windowsills are very difficult places to grow small or mounted orchids or species that are touchy, because the conditions are so variable. For example, the temperature can vary considerably as a result of the light and even proximately to the glass. We grow some Paphs, Phrags and Phals on a bathroom windowsill and they do very well, but they get more humidity there than in the rest of the house. Potting: I think this is more critical than people realize and is one of the hardest things to get right in relation to one's conditions. I've already said that mounted orchids do not usually do well in a windowsill and I think that is generally true, but potting can make quite a difference as well. Almost everything in my wardian case is grown in net pots and live sphagnum, but I would not grow the plants that way on a windowsill or in a more open environment. In less than ideal conditions sphagnum tends to dry out, be hard to remoisten or be far too wet and then it quickly becomes sour. I also think it is packed too tightly in most cases, but dries out even more quickly if packed loosely. I use live sphagnum loosely packed in net pots and the sphagnum grows in the pots (sometimes almost overwhelms the plants) and stays just moist without drying out. In your conditions, however, net pots and live sphagnum probably would not work. A mix of tree fern, perlite, bark, etc., might work, but that stays way to wet for me. I hope that helps and hope I haven't overwhelmed you. I remember when I started with orchids how utterly at sea I was - tried to grow everything and tried every new idea that came along, but gradually came to realize that I had to get it right for me and my growing conditions and that there wasn't any one solution. Perhaps that's the reason I'm not very scientific about my orchids - I never check the PH of the water, never measure fertilizer - just throw a tiny pinch in the sprayer most times I water - water by feel rather than on a strict schedule and observe. If a plant isn't doing well, I try to understand why and correct what can be corrected (i.e., I've had several Masdevallias that were troubled by leaf spotting and have added two more fans to my case and that seems to be doing the trick, but that comes as a result of thinking right from the start that I probably did not have enough air movement). |
Masdevallia caudata is actually a very hardy species in my experience...
...if the temperatures go no higher than 85 F. It can even tolerate 90 F for very brief periods of time. |
Interesting views on the Masd. caudata. Ron is it temperature sensitive in your view?
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It's one of those that seems to sulk unless everything is just right, but maybe I grow it too cool.
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