Phrag kovachii
 

We need to get this thread on phrags moving, so I figured a discussion of kovachii would help.

After all of the hype, jail time, court cases, CITES battles, and flask wars, it appears that we will be seeing seedlings of kovachii on the scene within the next year and most likely before that. From what I've seen the seedlings will be priced at a level that will only require a small refinancing of your home mortgage.
The hybrids will be very exciting and evidently are growing very well. A cross with a good bessae or something like Jason Fischer should produce amazing blooms.
How many of you will be in line frothing at the mouth for these upcoming releases?

well I'll be frothing at the mouth, but If I have to refinance my home, forget it.
So what happened to Mr. Kovach? From what I read he didnt really seem to be breaking the law, but I didnt read too much.
I'm new to the scene and am still reeling about this flower. Its magnificent!
But, if its soo rare, why would you want to hybridize it so soon. Wouldnt it be better to just get a good sized popultation of the original?
Also aren't they able to transport pollen from Peru to US? If so, then why arent there any hybrids already?

Thanks.

I would assume that pollen or any part of the protected plant/flower would also be regulated by cites. If anyone would cross polinate using the P.kovachi pollen they would be in violation of CITES... and would be subject to prosecution. If you'd announce that you have a kovachii hybrid, you'd have F&W knocking at your door in no time.... Whence, you better wait to obtain it through the legal channels...

Similarly in the dart frog hobby, Dendrobates mysteriosus, which cannot be in posession outside of Peru, yet somehow you see pictures of it being in a captivity.

http://houstonorchidsociety.org/Imag...ii_Croezen.jpg
Phragmipedium kovachii

Without question, the discovery of Phragmipedium kovachii and the implact it will have on breeding programs will be tremendous. Its new, its rare, its outrageous in color and size - good for it!

If it is so rare, maybe a little more investment should be made to establish a sustainable population in the natural environment, insead of lining the pocketbook. There seems to be a little too much concern with how we can benefit ($$) from this discovery, instead of what we can do to benefit nature.

All frothing aside, eventually the hype will fade away, hybrids will become more prevelant and the mere commoners will be able to afford them.

Consider the very poor local peasants, Dave. If they have not dined well, will they understand conservation issues :confused:

Weng

So true. Should that not be the role of the 'haves', to help the 'have nots'. Perhaps a little more thought of global success is required by all. Cleanup our own backyards and look to help others outside our borders, so that we don't merely take or have them take what we need.

Ok, I am done ranting!

Michael Kovach was sentenced to 2 years probation and a $1000. fine. Selby Gardens got in a world of trouble and George Norris ended up in jail.

There have been no legal plants of kovachii imported from Peru. A few "legal" plants have been sibbed and flasks are now available although with many difficulties. Also some hybrids have been made and will be available over the next year.

The primary reason that these plants are being ripped out of their native habit is that the natives are poor and these plants are highly desireable by smugglers.
These things always boil down to economics.

Any part of the plant is covered under CITES, and even pollen cannot be legally imported without all of the appropriate bells and whistles.

well, i'm content to just know its out there in the wild.

Dunno if that works either. If the have-nots turn into haves, then they'll be building on the wild orchids. As an avid orchid hunter (with a camera), I find that habitat loss is the real problem for the vast majority of orchids :( .

Weng

So how exactly did they manage to get this plant within a stone's throw of being on the market?

Phrag kovachii
 

This site may answer your question http://www.orchidweb.com/dtl_spec.asp?PRecno=3846

Flasks were on sale at the WOC in France, and at the Newbury Show in England. Unusually, the vendors recommended immediate deflasking despite the seedlings being only 2mm across! I did as recommended, and mine are growing well :) .

Weng

Thanks.

Yes there ARE legal plants of kovachii in the US
 

I am not going to post a long diatribe here on this topic, but feel free to email me if you would like some details of the saga that have not been made public. Flasks of kovachii seedlings were received by two commercial growers in the US several months ago. Just prior to that, I declined to purchase flasks in France last April at the WOC - all legal and pre-approved by USF&WS. The problem was that the plants looked terrible and had been jumbled in shipment. Since then I declined additional flasks for similar reason. The kovachii saga has been filled with tons of rumor, speculation, hype and an overwhelming amount of emotion. I was probably one of the first to be offered illegal plants within days after their discovery - I DECLINED - not because the asking price was $20,000 but because they were illegal. As for the hybrids, yes the two authorized nurseries in Peru began making hybrids immediately and several of those have entered the US legally as well. Lists of those hybrids have been circulating for some time. My impression is that many of the plants used in the hybrids were also species, but there may have been some hybrids used in crosses as well. I don't recall seeing any AOS awarded Phrags being used in any of the crosses, but that doesn't mean that they don't already exist. It SHOULD be a few years before any legitimate hybrids between kovachii other Phrags in the US are available, unless someone in Peru has obtained US stock and already begun breeding with them. The only legal kovachii's in the US are the ones that were shipped a few months ago in flask, and one would assume that they will not be mature enough for breeding for a while at least. I was told at the AOS meeting in Florida in early April that many more flasks will soon be arriving in the US and that the prices will be much more reasonable. This will all be interesting to watch as it unfolds.

20,000!!!! I cant believe it! Thats soooooo much money. Thanks for the great info, and welcome if I haven't already said so.

Several US breeders are acting with Alfredo Manrique's nursery in Peru and have legally imported flasks of kovachii. Seedlings are only just becoming available this summer-fall, as trade embargos in the flask contracts begin to expire.

Prices are looking like $100-200 per seedling, depending on size and how quickly seedlings are obtainable (obviously, the price will go down over time.)

Chuck Acker and Jerry Fischer are one source:
http://www.flasksbychuckacker.com/

Glen Decker at Piping Rock is another:
http://www.pipingrockorchids.com/

Julie

kovachii looks soo great. I hope to try some sort of slipper orchid soon.

Well, I have been impressed by kovachii....but only by its size, not its color...certainly not its shape, as I have read that the blooms start to curl almost immediately after opening...I for one will wait until kovachii becomes a more commonplace seedling to buy...by then, easier culture strains will be around..although I have heard that kovachii is "easy"...that's still only from professional growers in Peru. I'm comparing kovachii to besseae...when besseae first became available, it was not an easy phrag to grow...and for me, the infamous orchid killer, phrags are the easiest slippers to grow..among the easiest orchids to grow. Now, besseae's are easier to grow, no harder than other phrags, and way better looking...I'll still take my besseae over any phrag hybrid, period. So...I can wait. Take care, Eric

I am with Eric on this - and I have the chance to buy my first hyrbids in the near future - but have decided to wait. I figure, small plants growing larger in experienced growers' greenhouses will grow better and better to let them do the experimenting.

I want one now, but I think waiting, for me, is a better option. :)

Understandable Phrag kovachii will generate a ton of attention - the color, the size, the potential. The impact on breeding is very exciting. But come on....$100 per seedling, $1000 per flask - ridiculous!

It all sounds like a lot of hype of a new species and I want to first on the block to own one!

Much respect to any of you for not succumbing to the hype and the frenzy.

Actually, $100 a seedling is really quite reasonable.
Hybrid seedlings are going for $75. When besseae was first available (and as Eric said, tricky!), plants were well into the thousands of dollars.

Glen's always said his plan is to flood the market as early as possible with lower priced species seedlings in order to avoid that sort of price gouging that went on with besseae.

He also has a jump on the other two because he isn't working with Peruflora (Arias), who made everyone sign agreements that the seedlings would not be sold until 2007. So, by the time Chuck and Jerry (who owns Orchids Ltd - not affiliated with Ackers except in friendship) can sell their seedlings, Glen's plants will have already been on the market for quite a while.

However, I still think that letting the professionals grow them and figure them out for a while, is not such a bad plan.

I'm looking forward to seeing the hybrids in person in a few weeks. Hopefully Glen will allow photos. :)

I guess I have to be the voice of the minority on this board as well.

First it needs to be renamed Peruvianum. Second, the very thing that I love about Kovachii is the big floppy petals. That is the way it was created. Once breeders start "improving" it, it will lose the very thing that makes it beautiful in the first place. Will the second and third generation Kovachii's be great? Sure. But they won't be the same, or as nice IMO as the big pink/purple floppy eared beauty. Man's improvement of nature's already perfect orchids for the sake of a few ribbons and a slap on the back by an AOS judge isn't what Kovachii needs.

You know, to each their own, that's the bottom line if you ask me. And Neo - I actually think you may be more in the majority here! But I'd like to throw this one out there to you - how BRED have Neofinitias been? It is my understanding that breeding quality Neos is regarded as an art form, and until recently one reserved for the ultra elite in Japan.

My point is - to each their own. ;)

I am most looking forward to seeing the first kov. seedlings and hybrids, and also their future. I think it is very exciting!

<peeve alert>
BTW, species are not capitalized. (come on Julie, back me up on this will ya?) </peeve>

Where is Rob Halgren, anyway?

Don't forget...small caps are a sign of coolness, and species are truly cool! Especially newly discovered ones...which I've already ordered! (Guess that shows where I fall in this discussion!)

julie

Heather,

I own both wild collected and "bred" versions of besseae. I prefer wild collected style besseae to the round petal look, but both are nice in their own way. If this is any indication of the type of "breeding improvements" we will see in kovachii in the coming years, I will be glad to just have the kovachii that is coming within the next year and leave the "improved" line bred offspring to people who want to show them.

I am not sure what Neo's have to do with kovachii, but I think you want to label me a hypocrite. Variegated Neo's are divisions of wild collected plants. There is only one type of variegated Neo that will produce variegated seedlings, and even then the offspring so closely resemble the parents that it is next to impossible to tell which is the seedling and which is the division. All other variegated types are divisions of age old plants, period. Other Neo's can be grown from seed, but are so far from being "bred" for changes, it is not even an issue. Neo's today look just like Neo's did hundreds of years ago. That is why some are so expensive, because they are divisions of mother plants which may be very rare. Jason Fischer is selling divisions of a plant that was collected in the 1800's if memory serves.

I was simply trying to express my opinion about kovachii, which happens to be exactly the opposite of alot of people. To each his own, usually means letting someone voice their opinion, even if it greatly differs from your own without trying to bait them. :)

By the way, sorry for the capitilization of kovachii in my previous post. Didn't know it urked you so much. I am not going to go back and edit out my improper caps in that first post though, because that would be wrong. I promise to do better.

No no, not trying to label you at all!

I didn't know that Neos were not being line-bred. I apologize for inferring that. So they are ALL divisions? Every single one?
I figured that, for sure, some Neofinitia falcatas must have been line bred by now. It is, albeit possibly unfortunately, the norm among orchid growers. With such perfection relished among Japanese arts, I find it hard to imagine that the Japanese aren't breeding these for better specimens. And that they haven't been doing this for generations! They sure are breeding paphs!

While I value wild collected plants for their genetic diversity, on the other hand, I know a lot of folks that would balk at wild plants for one removing them from their natural environment. So that is another issue - wild collected kovachiis are obviously a no-no...so I find the comparison very interesting!

(btw, you know how crazy the Japanese are for ultra-bred Paphs, yes? Hence my confusion - and why I asked...)

And still to each their own - I just wanted to point out that what is beautiful for one for a certain reason may be ugly to another, and vice versa. People are always going to strive for perfection - be that a good or a bad thing, time will tell.

As I recall, someone wished to start a discussion here - and so he did. Bravo! Let's keep it up!

Almost every variegated Neo is a division according to Jason Fischer. There are some regular Neo's that have been seed grown, but they aren't line bred like American orchids are. The Japanese so respect these plants that I find it hard to believe they would allow line breeding of Neo's. There may be one exception.

Certain yellow/orange Neo's have been reportedly crossed with Ascocentrum in the background, but then crossed back to Neofinetia so much that they resemble Neofinetia. But even these are called Neofinetia and not Neocentrum or some other derivation. And there are wild collected yellow, green and pink Neo's. I may be wrong but that is what I believe from everything I have read/been told. Maybe it is time to invite Jason in here to clear it up? :)

They believe in growing them for perfection rather than breeding them for perfection. That is fine with me, because it doesn't change the shape/size/color of the flower. I can't give you accurate numbers of how many are divisions and how many are seed grown, but they all look the same as they have for hundreds of years, perfect. If I found out that Neo's were line bred, I wouldn't buy any. I buy them on the belief that they are not any different from the plants I could have if I traveled back in time and grabbed one from the collection of a Samurai.


I would never advocate removing wild collected plants now, for profit. The wild collected Neo's I refer to were collected way before cites ever existed and have been grown as family heirlooms. I would also not advocate wild collecting kovachii. When I say "wild collected" type kovachii, what I mean is the first generation of seedlings grown from breeding two wild collected plants. These seedlings will have the same floppy petals and large flowers as their wild collected parents. Three generations from now, who knows what they will look like. The wild collected besseae I have is a division of a plant that is owned legally by Jerry at Orchids Limited.

That is why I wish the name would be changed from kovachii to peruvianum. Glory through theft and greed is not a stigma I like to see attached to such a beautiful plant.

Unfortunately the name kovachii takes precedence due to its being published first. At least that is the ruling on the field... Sneakily and with probable illegal material, but first. I prefer peruvianum, as well.

Glen Decker made a good point about kovachii at our judging seminar in May. If it has round flat petals, it ain't open... Don't judge it! I agree that part of the charm is the large floppy petals. Like Dumbo's ears. I've got dibs on Dumbo as a clonal name, people!! It is impossible to tell what it will give to its hybrids. The purple colors that you see are hard to come by otherwise. I think increased petal width in the hybrids would be a plus. But we will have to breed away from floppy - regardless of how charming it is, it won't be easy to sell.

I liked it well enough to buy two flasks from Glen.

I had read that part of the sentence against Selby gardens was that they had to petition to have the name changed. I assume this has already happened, and the choice has already been made to leave it as kovachii?

You would think that something like this would tarnish the reputation of the taxonomical community, and that they would want to change it. Also, is taxonomical a word? :)

Someday, I am going to build a greenhouse where I only grow seedlings from natural looking orchids. Angular besseae, floppy kovachii, and phals that don't overlap. They may not sell, but it will be beautiful.

There is no chance that the name will be changed...regardless of ethical considerations, Kovach beat the system on naming the phrag. To allow the vastly better name of peruvianum, the rules would have to be changed...not likely to happen. Botanical taxonomy is very conservative...no changes likely in those rules...and probably correctly so. True, it bugs a lot of people (myself included) that a smuggler gets awarded with a plant named after him (and there is no way that I buy that Kovach was unaware of the legal ramifications of bringing that plant in..), but it got published first...if anyone is really at fault in the naming, its Selby, who went for opportunity over ethics...but changing the rules of nomenclature opens too many cans of worms...witness the Paph situation with tigrinum vs. markianum. Guido still insists that his name "markianum" is the valid name because it was published first...by fax to a botanical institution.
Koopowits (with substantially more support) regards tigrinum as the proper name because it was published in print first...Overall, tigrinum appears to be the accepted name...it was literally published first. Braem still holds his ground, while conceding that tigrinum is a better name in and of itself. As for the kovachii petals...I must clarify myself: the floppiness does not disturb me...its the recurving of the petals after opening...reminds me of too many mediocre complex paphs....Take care, Eric

While I think the species itself is a total knockout, I cannot wait to see what this does to the entire field of phrag breeding. Except for besseae, everything was getting to be a blend of pink, green, and brown - sort of like the myriad of white phals.

When I spent a day with Joe Kunische of Bloomfiled Orchids before speaking to their OS last spring, he was talking about "getting out of phrags" for that very reason. When I mentioned P. kovachii, he said something to the effect of "Well... that's true."

Do you think that breeders will start trying to develop more purple in their hybrids because of the number of red/pink besseae influenced hyrids already out there? Seeing how most of the kovachii photos I have seen show pink flowers, I would think the one or two purple flowered kovachii I have seen photos of may be more rare?

More vendors are starting to carry flavum versions of hyrids now. I would think if the rumors of a flavum or alba kovachii are true, that would allow for a simultaneous line of flavum/alba kovachii breeding. Can someone explain to me if besseae var. flavum was discovered much later than red besseae? It seems the flavum versions of hybrids are just now spiking in popularity.

I do agree that kovachiii will add some needed variety to phrags. It used to be just greens, browns and yellows...then came besseae...and we added pinks, reds, and peaches...but, no offense to the phrag growers here (and I am, after all, a phrag grower myself), but I still find phrags to be way too repetitious as compared to paphs. My fear is that history will repeat itself....everyone will load up on the kovachii hybrids, which will be spectacular for the first people to bloom them....and then after another few years, everyone will get bored because the new batch of hybrids all looks the same. Take care, Eric