Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !

Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web ! (http://www.orchidboard.com/community/)
-   Cattleya Alliance (http://www.orchidboard.com/community/cattleya-alliance/)
-   -   The bloody red Sophronitis coccinea (http://www.orchidboard.com/community/cattleya-alliance/27815-bloody-red-sophronitis-coccinea.html)

Rosim_in_BR 09-15-2009 09:55 AM

The bloody red Sophronitis coccinea
 
This is perhaps one of the most known orchids among growers and especially among hybridizers for its striking color, not to mention the large flower compared to the plant. I acquired this seedling that resulted from selfing a selected plant found in the coastal mountains of the State of Espirito Santo, in Brazil. Not bad for the first generation in domestic cultivation.
The city of Santo André, where I live, is scarce 10 miles away from the habitat of this species. In the 80's a highway cut the habitat and we used to go see it in bloom in August. It was thousands and thousands and thousands of brilliant red dots on the trees, no matter what direction you looked at, as if the trees were all dressed up of small red Christmas lights. You can use words to describe what was seen, but no words are available to transmit the enchantment of that vision. Those scenes are forever impressed in my mind!
Then progress quickly showed its dark face. With that highway cutting the habitat, year after year the plants began to disappear. As if someone turned the lights off, by the end of the 80's, believe me, not a single plant of Sophronitis could be found anymore through the 15 miles of that highway. I went back there many times in the 90's and never saw not even a single plant of Sophronitis, with or without bloom.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2643/...0156a971_t.jpg

kinknstein 09-15-2009 10:49 AM

Thats awful Mauro! But on the bright side you have one gorgeous plant!! Thanks for the info!

kiki-do 09-15-2009 11:17 AM

OHM that is sad! Someone needs a wake up call! Your brilliantly red Sophronitis is gorgeous, though. :)

tuvoc 09-15-2009 11:18 AM

Sometimes I wonder if the price of 'progress' is too high. Sad story, but lovely plant, Mauro.

Kim

RosieC 09-15-2009 01:06 PM

So sad to hear they are gone along that highway. I hope there is still some hidden place where they can still thrive.

Your cultivated plant is just wonderful. Such a great red colour.

orchideric 09-15-2009 01:11 PM

Dear Mauro,

Can you give us the probable cause for the disappearance? Was it people collecting them or was it a change in the local ecology due to the highway? In cloud forest in the Andes just building the road is enough to effect the ecology - moisture sensitive genera like Lepanthes won't be found along the roadside while other, "tougher" genera do just fine.

I do know there wasa time when Sophronitis coccinea was being collected by the thousands for export, especially to Japan.

Eric

kavanaru 09-15-2009 01:49 PM

gorgeous plant... sad story that happens quite often... :(

Rosim_in_BR 09-15-2009 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchideric (Post 255989)
Dear Mauro,

Can you give us the probable cause for the disappearance? Was it people collecting them or was it a change in the local ecology due to the highway? In cloud forest in the Andes just building the road is enough to effect the ecology - moisture sensitive genera like Lepanthes won't be found along the roadside while other, "tougher" genera do just fine.

I do know there wasa time when Sophronitis coccinea was being collected by the thousands for export, especially to Japan.

Eric

People avid for easy profit, Eric, collected the plants. Rumors are that a certain nursery owner used to organize and guide 'photographic' safaris of Japenese 'tourists' during the Sophro flowering time in the area... anyway, not only Sophros disappeared but also Zygopetalums, Maxillarias, bushes and bushes of terrestrial Epidendrums, Vanilla, Pleurothallis, Oncidiums. Despite the ecologic impact caused by the highway, human hands devastated the area.

Cattleya17 09-15-2009 04:36 PM

Absolutely Gorgeous Mauro!! I wish so badly that something could be done to stop the destruction of orchid habitats! its so sad and heartbreaking. I just dont think humans will be able to stop it.

Amazing plant! great growing as always keep it up! i love your posts!
~Sam

nenella 09-15-2009 04:43 PM

Fabulous plant & flower! extremely striking. I agree with all the above comments ref: Sad humans...
Thank you for your beautiful picture and expanding my knowledge!

smweaver 09-16-2009 09:52 AM

Mauro, that's a depressing story. But I think that we, as orchid growers, are at least partially to blame for this type of behavior. If there was no market for that species of sophronitis, then they would still be enjoying life in their natural habitat instead of garnering awards for orchid growers all over the world.

Right now on EBay there's a seller who's auctioning off established plants of a newly-discovered dendrobium species from China. Since the species was only discovered within the last year or so, I had a bad feeling about how this guy could have so quickly been able to offer fully established adult plants. So I emailed him and asked to see a picture of the plants. He sent back a few photos and included the unsolicited comment that there was no need to worry about them being established or healthy full-grown adult plants since they are being collected with the pieces of bark they've been growing on simply stripped from the habitat in their native Yunnan Province. I wrote back to him and asked if he would be able to provide appropriate CITES documentation and import permits. Not surprisingly, he has so far chosen not to respond. I'm tempted to write to EBay and inform them that it seems highly improbable that these plants were legally obtained. But I also think that I might be wasting my time. As long as there are growers who are willing to ignore unpleasant details about a plant's origins, the seller of that plant will always be able to find a willing buyer, especially if that buyer resides in an affluent area of the world where instant gratification often seems to be taken for granted as a natural right.

It is certainly a beautiful plant and bloom that you have. Would you mind providing some cultural information, please? Thanks!

Steve

Rosim_in_BR 09-16-2009 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smweaver (Post 256184)
Mauro, that's a depressing story. But I think that we, as orchid growers, are at least partially to blame for this type of behavior. If there was no market for that species of sophronitis, then they would still be enjoying life in their natural habitat instead of garnering awards for orchid growers all over the world.

Right now on EBay there's a seller who's auctioning off established plants of a newly-discovered dendrobium species from China. Since the species was only discovered within the last year or so, I had a bad feeling about how this guy could have so quickly been able to offer fully established adult plants. So I emailed him and asked to see a picture of the plants. He sent back a few photos and included the unsolicited comment that there was no need to worry about them being established or healthy full-grown adult plants since they are being collected with the pieces of bark they've been growing on simply stripped from the habitat in their native Yunnan Province. I wrote back to him and asked if he would be able to provide appropriate CITES documentation and import permits. Not surprisingly, he has so far chosen not to respond. I'm tempted to write to EBay and inform them that it seems highly improbable that these plants were legally obtained. But I also think that I might be wasting my time. As long as there are growers who are willing to ignore unpleasant details about a plant's origins, the seller of that plant will always be able to find a willing buyer, especially if that buyer resides in an affluent area of the world where instant gratification often seems to be taken for granted as a natural right.

It is certainly a beautiful plant and bloom that you have. Would you mind providing some cultural information, please? Thanks!

Steve

What is particularly sad in this Sophro case is that The Serra do Mar, a long mountain chain bordering the Atlantic Ocean, including this particular area, is a State protected Park, an area for environmental conservation for the future generations. Removing any orchid from these habitats is a Federal offense that subjects the infractor to be immediately arrested without the benefit of answering for his/her crime in freedom... only on the paper! Never heard of anybody arrested for illegally removing orchids from protected areas.
Stories like these and the one you tell are dramatic. But, I tend to partially agree with you about us, amateur orchid growers, being responsible for that in some extent by creating a market for these plants. If you allow me, I would put this in other words saying that we, as human beings, are to blame for that and I include the non-orchid growers. You see, these flowers are attractive not only for us, collectors; we, actually, buy seed raised plants mostly and are too few compared to the number of people who buy orchids. Wild orchids. One example: we have Indian people that live in the State protected Park I mentioned. They are the only people who are allowed to make their living from the forest resources, because they were here when we came. They know what to extract from the forest: orchids. They offer flowered wild plants alongside the roads, and who buys them? Common people, attracted by the flowers, non-orchid growers mostly, in short!
Anyway, I have no illusions about a satisfactory solution being worked out someday, but we can contribute, we can do our share by educating people whenever we can.

Sun rm.N.E. 09-16-2009 09:06 PM

Your flower is strikingly beautiful. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I never knew it was so prolific in any one location.

Cookiemonster 09-16-2009 10:16 PM

That story is very tragic Mauro- and unfortunately anywhere that man treks destruction is bound to follow.
I was watching a video on youtube of tourists going to some undisclosed region in Brazil looking for walkerianas- the trees were completely covered in these beauties, I can only hope they left everything behind as they found it.
I had also read a story online about Phrag Kovachii in Peru- and how certain mountains were covered in them and nothing was to be found
New Orchid Species Leaves Admirers Amazed - The New York Times

Pollenatrix: Phrag. Kovachii sites in Peru destroyed

I guess my question to you would be if something is being exploited is it best to just let things run its course or take a piece and conserve the specie?

On a site note Soph Coccinea is incredibly beautiful

trdyl 09-17-2009 02:20 AM

What a tragic story. Some people just can not stop themselves from trying to make a quick buck and destroying everything in their path to get it.

Bolero 09-17-2009 02:52 AM

It's one of the nicest coccinea flowers I've seen. It is a shame this has happened and if people don't demand wild plants then they would still be around. Something to remember when we buy plants, make sure they are not found in the wild but have been bred in captivity.

orchideric 09-17-2009 03:02 AM

Phragmipedium kovachii grows in a protected forest, the Bosque Alto Mayo, as well.

Despite the indictment and guilty pleas of the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens and their former horticulturist Wesley Higgins, I have it on impeccable authority that wild collected seedlings were for sale at the World Orchid Conference in Miami in addition to the smaller, artificially propagated seedlings. Nobody said "Boo" because, of course, everyone wanted to buy the wild-collected plants. What does it take to instill the fear of god into people? For the record, I wasn't there.

Eric Hansen really did nail the subject with his book title 'Orchid Fever' - the look in people's eyes when they reject all rational thought in pursuit of what they want. Nothing gets between a grower and the plants they want and feel they have an inalienable right to own immediately.

Eric

Bolero 09-17-2009 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchideric (Post 256399)
Phragmipedium kovachii grows in a protected forest, the Bosque Alto Mayo, as well.

Despite the indictment and guilty pleas of the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens and their former horticulturist Wesley Higgins, I have it on impeccable authority that wild collected seedlings were for sale at the World Orchid Conference in Miami in addition to the smaller, artificially propagated seedlings. Nobody said "Boo" because, of course, everyone wanted to buy the wild-collected plants. What does it take to instill the fear of god into people? For the record, I wasn't there.

Eric Hansen really did nail the subject with his book title 'Orchid Fever' - the look in people's eyes when they reject all rational thought in pursuit of what they want. Nothing gets between a grower and the plants they want and feel they have an inalienable right to own immediately.

Eric

And of course that also applies to wild animals of course. It's a very sad state of affairs. I don't know what anyone actually gains by having a wild plant - can anyone tell me?

orchideric 09-17-2009 10:02 AM

Dear Bolero,

There is an odd persistent mystique that wild-collected plants are better. There may be a twinge of truth with some of the historic clones having virus. But of course that was before people understood that you can raise plants from dry seed and eliminate any viral load. This also may be an artifact of plants that do not exhibit any outward evidence of virus - such as most Paphiopedilum.

Alas, every once in a while a plant comes along that reinflames the myth. A plant like Cattleya skinneri 'Hettie Jacobs' FCC/AOS which was wild-collected and not derived rom a select seed strain. So people would rather import 30 wild-collected plants because hey "might" get a good one rather than raise half a dozen select seedlings.

People are silly and self-centered.

Eric

Rosim_in_BR 09-17-2009 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookiemonster (Post 256363)
.......

I guess my question to you would be if something is being exploited is it best to just let things run its course or take a piece and conserve the specie?

On a site note Soph Coccinea is incredibly beautiful

This has no easy answer, you know, Suzie, but a few things must be considered: at first, law must be respected at any price. If the law says orchids cannot be removed from their natural protected areas, then all we have to do is obey, end period. If you find a good plant that you think deserves to be introduced in domestic cultivation, then there are legal ways to collect it, always under the legal surveillance. Is it a difficult process to legally follow? Yes, it is, on purpose, but the door exists.
On the other hand, there are laws that assure land proprietors to put virgin forests down to exploit any kind of agro-business. The same laws establish a certain percentage of the area that can be deforested, but farmers 9 times out of 10 do not obey the law and clean the entire property. What to think about this? Should one go and get the orchids for conservation? Hard to decide, because here there is the private property question and entering is invasion. So, if, on one hand, State controlled forests have their orchids protected by law preventing you from collecting, on the other hand private property containing forests also are impeditive... tricky isn't it?
It is heartbreaking to see how easily entire forests containing large populations of orchids, bromeliads and so many other attractive or medicinal plants are swept out to give place to pasture! It is something insane to substitute a complex, auto-balanced eco-system by grass... miles and miles and miles of nothing more than... grass!!! So, the feeling that we could do something to help conservation is natural, but we must act according to the law, and this not always is an easy way!

ChrisFL 09-17-2009 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchideric (Post 256474)
Alas, every once in a while a plant comes along that reinflames the myth. A plant like Cattleya skinneri 'Hettie Jacobs' FCC/AOS which was wild-collected and not derived rom a select seed strain. So people would rather import 30 wild-collected plants because hey "might" get a good one rather than raise half a dozen select seedlings.

Well, in all fairness, despite line breeding, ploidy changes, etc. Some of the nicest plants in existence still for many species are wild/field collected. A few examples:

Cattleya violacea 'Muse'
Cattleya violacea coerulea 'Indian'
Cattleya lueddemanniana 'Maruja'
Cattleya lueddemanniana 'Arthur Chadwick'
Cattleya trianaei 'Jungle Feather'
Cattleya trianaei 'Mary Fennel'
and many other trianaei
etc

Additionally, for some collectors, there is a mystique and pride about possessing and being able to grow and bloom field collected plants, sometimes regardless of the flower quality.

Don't get me wrong, I am not making a case for field collected plants. But I would be a hypocrite to denounce them outright. It is possible to do anything in a sustainable manner, especially given other threats to the plants' existence outside of orchid collection. Would I ever buy field plants from a large importer? No. Would I acquire field plants from someone whom I knew well, trusted and knew the circumstances of their collection (rescued from road cutting and deforestation, etc.)? Yes.

orchideric 09-17-2009 12:55 PM

The important distincton in collecting plants from habitats being destroyed is what happens to the plants afterward. If the plants remain in country and no borders are crossed, that is altruistic and should be encouraged (and CITES is not a factor). If the plants are removed from the country - especially by Americas, Germans, Japanese, etc. - that is just exploitation under a different name. Better the plants should be left to die in order to create demand for artificially raised seedlings - especially when generated by the country of origin. I get rather sick of Americans - especially - who want to "salvage" a species instead of paying $8, $10, or $12 for an artificially raised seedling. Pillaging another country is still pillaging whether the plants are on the trees or lying on the ground.

It's 2009 and about time to respect other nations sovereignty over THEIR plants.

Eric

ChrisFL 09-17-2009 01:39 PM

Quote:

Better the plants should be left to die in order to create demand for artificially raised seedlings - especially when generated by the country of origin.
You can't be serious. So, allow entire natural populations and gene pools to die in favor of persistence of human-created, inbred, genetically limited gene puddles?

orchideric 09-17-2009 04:53 PM

Dear Chris,

I am serious. They are not our plants - they are not ours to do with. It only takes a few years before the wild-collected plants would generally go out of cultivation anyway. Of the hundreds of thousands of wild-collected plants shipped out of places like Thailand and the Philippines, just how many do you think have persisted more than a decade or two in cultivation? We "save" them so they can be wiped out by Hurricane Andrew and Benlate.

As to plants in cultivation being "inbred, genetically limited" - that all depends on the choice of what is propagated. Granted, too much selection is made for round flowers for award purposes. Nobody is stopping anyone from randomly crossing two individuals to mximize heterzygosity.

No, better the doomed plants be left to die, nurseries get established in the tropics, and the people and government learn the value of the plants. Maybe then the Japanese tourists would actually be tourists and buy plants at the local nursery in Brazil - because it would be easier - instead of stripping them from the wild.

There is a lag time to getting an industry started but once started the system does work. Look at the shining examples of Ecuagenera, Floralia, Orquideas del Valle, etc. Once there is demand and the value can be added in the country of origin, the species can be effectively saved by the marketplace.

This is a case where the old conservation line comes in - Think globally, act locally. Salvage and preserve local orchids and let other countries do the same. If they want to destroy their orchids, that is their right.

Eric

ChrisFL 09-18-2009 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchideric (Post 256577)
Salvage and preserve local orchids and let other countries do the same. If they want to destroy their orchids, that is their right.

Eric

I could not disagree more.

orchideric 09-18-2009 02:22 AM

Re-elect Bush, invade Brazil, and impose your divine will. Your rights clearly are more important than those of Brazilians. You know better.

End of discussion

kavanaru 09-18-2009 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisFL (Post 256524)
in favor of persistence of human-created, inbred, genetically limited gene puddles?

just for information, the inbred, genetically limited gene puddles are stay normally within the realm of horticulture and bring almost nothing to the conservation of species in the wild (no matter what AOS, DOG, SOG and Mandrake say) This is a population created to satisfy human needs, and nothing else!

my :twocents:

ChrisFL 09-18-2009 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchideric (Post 256726)
Re-elect Bush, invade Brazil, and impose your divine will. Your rights clearly are more important than those of Brazilians. You know better.

End of discussion

I'm not talking about my rights. I'm talking about the rights of plants that you think humans have the divine will to be lord and master over:

Quote:

If they want to destroy their orchids, that is their right.
I do not believe it is anyone's right to destroy entire populations and gene pools of a living organism just because of some man-made political boundaries.

Also, just to throw another wrench in your flippant and poorly thought out argument: if they have the right to destroy all their wild plants, they also have the right to sell them to importers for pennies a plant. No? Which is it?

ChrisFL 09-18-2009 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kavanaru (Post 256728)
just for information, the inbred, genetically limited gene puddles are stay normally within the realm of horticulture and bring almost nothing to the conservation of species in the wild (no matter what AOS, DOG, SOG and Mandrake say) This is a population created to satisfy human needs, and nothing else!

my :twocents:

We are in complete agreement, that's part of my point.

cb977 09-18-2009 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchideric (Post 256726)
Re-elect Bush, invade Brazil, and impose your divine will. Your rights clearly are more important than those of Brazilians. You know better.

End of discussion


Once again, nobody else can have an opinion!
I'm issuing the infraction here.


We WILL keep this place civil and enjoyable :tapfoot:

Now, it's the end of the discussion, the thread is being closed :(

Mauro, I apologize for closing the thread on your gorgeous plant but this conversation can only go downhill from here ;)


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:42 AM.

3.8.9
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.37 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2025 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.


Clubs vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.