Spike damage, sphag moss, two plants in one pot!
 

Hi all!

Brand new phal owner... I hope it's not weird that I refer to my newest plant as "her"... I've never felt like that about my other plants. I may have even named her Gemini. Anyways!

I just bought my first orchid from a -very- reputable source... the grocery store. Hey, I figured I wasn't ready to invest too much in case I'm not a great orchid mom.

She's lovely and has bright, deep speckles of purple on her flowers, and currently has two spikes (?), both with blooms.

She's in a pot without drainage, as far as I can tell. The pot is full to the brim with damp-verging-on-soggy sphagnum moss (I think that's what it's called? please see picture). I had to pull a leaf off the bottom that was getting mushy - I wasn't too happy about that. I'm assuming I'll have to repot her, since she's too soggy. Should I use mulch? As well as find her a pot with good ventilation/drainage. I was wondering if I could also try drying out the moss slightly and putting stones in the bottome of the pot (as I do with my other plants) and use the moss still? Or is it just a bad idea?

Also, in transport, on of her spikes was badly damaged by the clips holding it against its support (see picture). Some of the unopened buds are looking a little sad (see picture), although the blooms that are open still look great. Should I just leave it how it is, or cut part or all of it off?

Lastly, I think she might be two in one! (Hence Gemini) In one of the pictures I've attached, you can see the moss and what I think are two plant bases. (As well as a sad stub where they cut off one of her leaves :( ). Is this a problem? Should they be separated?

Thanks!

-Super Excited Phal Mom

Welcome to the Orchid Board!

It looks like your Phal may be in a decorative pot that holds the actual pot the Phal sits in. If this is the case, lift the inner pot and see if it is sitting in water. If there is no inner pot, then you need to repot into something with drainage holes or slits.

When repotting you will have to make a choice of what to use. Some prefer sphagnum, some bark, some prefer a mix of bark, charcoal, peat chunks. There's also mounting and semi-hydro growth.

If by mulch you mean the bark that you cover a flower bed with to prevent weeds and retain moisture, don't use it. It may work but it may be treated with chemicals to prevent rotting, it may compact too much, etc.

The damaged flower spike can be cut back to just above the next lower node and a new spike may grow from there.

Otherwise, the plant looks healthy, though "soggy" is not a good condition for the moss.

Hi redperphexion and welcome to Orchid Board :welcome:

Don't worry, a lot of us refer to 'chids as 'she' and we name them as well (those that don't come with official names). :biggrin:

If there is no inner pot with holes then get it out that pot! You really really need one with holes in it. If there is an inner pot then pull that out and allow the air to get arround it for a bit.

Personally I would get it out the moss anyway. Except in very small plants (I have a little 2" pot I've left with sphag) I don't like it. It stays far too wet and that can quickly lead to rot.

You have already seen rot in the lowest leaf but you could have root rot as well and without roots the plant is in a very bad way.:evil:

I think you should should take it out the pot and pull the moss away and see what the roots are like. If they are fine and you want to stick with the moss then you can put it back in with the moss. If the roots are rotten or if the moss smells bad then leave it out.

You can keep the plant 'bare root' without potting it back up for a couple of weeks or so if the moss has gone bad, while you get something else to put it in. You will need to water everyday or even twice a day to do that though. I've done it for over a month in the past on a Phal I was rescuing from root loss.

I like to pot in a mixture of orchid bark and Coconut Husk Chip (CHC) but choice of medium can be somewhat personal. Ray has some good advice on his website on choosing a potting medium. As Doc G said, don't use bark intended for outdoor garden use. It's not suitable for orchids.

Choosing Potting Media

The important thing to know with Phals is that they like their roots to breath. Generally the easiest way to ensure they can do this is to ensure they dry out regularly between waterings. A clear plastic pot is great because then you can see the roots through it. When they are silvery they need watering, when they are green then they don't need more yet.

I think that spike just needs cutting off at the broken point. It does not look like the buds above it can survive. Hopefully you might get a side spike which is what one of mine did when the spike was broken in transit.

The most important thing is to check on the roots though. If they are in sodden moss there is a high danger of rotting. If you look after the plant you should get more flowers later, but if the roots die the plant will struggle to live, let alone flower again.:evil:

:goodluck: and if you remove it from the pot and take pics of the roots to show us, you are bound to get more advise on what to do next.

Thanks, guys!

If I take her out and leave the roots without repotting, should i soak her for an hour or so a day and leave her out dry for the rest? How would I take care of her out of a pot!?

Also... is having two plants in one pot an issue?

Hello and welcome to the Orchid Board!

Once the plant is out of the pot and bare root just drench the roots with water twice a day like Rosie mentioned above. One thing that needs to be said is to keep the crow as dry as possible. The crown is where the newest leaves are coming out. About 2 plants in the same pot, what do you have in mind?

yes you can separate the two plants, and probably should considering that they are under stress. they would benifet by being in separate pots, and would be easier for you to monitor thier condition....as far as the broken spike, just cut it and put it in water, the buds may perk back up and open, if not you havent lost a thing...the cut spike may branch out with a side spike as mentioned above....quick fix on potting media is home depot or lowes orchid potting bark...it isnt a good quality, but it will do till you find something better....put the plants in a 4" pot, bigger pots arent needed or appreciated by the plants...

HD here has only Miracle Grow Orchid mix that is full of peat moss and looks/ feels like reg soil with a few bark chips in it.

At Lowes they sell Better-Gro orchid mix and bark which are AOS endorsed. Bark, charcoal, perlite.
I would get that...
Skip the Miracle Grow.

Tonight I will go home and take her out. I will try to split up the two plants if I can... (I'll have to rename them lol) and cut off the bad roots. I peeked under the moss a little today, and there is some not-fun stuff going on in there. I hear I need to be pretty bold about cutting off the bad stuff. Should I take the flower spikes off to make the plant focus on root regrowth??? and how do I keep them upright until I can repot them?

You guys are amazing! Thanks again.

Lets see what the roots look like first before you chop the spike. As ar as keeping them upright prop them up the best way you can.

I agree, see what the roots are like before cutting the spikes. If there are hardly any good roots then you may need to remove the spikes, but if you have plenty of good ones it may not be necessary.

When cutting off the roots, leave any which are firm... whatever their colour. Good roots come in a wide range of colours, green, silver, white and even brown. It's hollow/mushy roots which are a problem.

Roots, Revealed!
 

So I've taken the damaged spike off just below the worst of the damage... I've put the bloom in water hoping to keep [and as I'm writing this, the biggest flower fell off the stem... of course!] hoping to keep it for a few days. I don't see any more nodes on the spike still left on the plant - we'll see.

I've taken the girls out of the cramped pot they were in - check out the picture of how much soggy moss was in that little plastic pot! I'm no orchid expert, but I'm an avid gardener and I'm not sure if it's really bad, or just fairly bad. What worries me most is the brown-y-damp "plant body" (?) between the crown and the roots, and the occasional brown dried segments on the healthy roots.

Any advice on what to do next would be great!

First of all, despite what most people would advise about the possibility of using full on moss as a potting medium, I highly advise against it.

This is a highly unnatural way of growing a Phalaenopsis. Naturally speaking, there is usually no moss to very little moss growing on or around the roots of many species of Phalaenopsis.

There are very few pictures of Phalaenopsis growing in the wild. You can pull some up using google images.

The moss retains too much water for way too long and can compact; reducing the amount of oxygen getting to their roots.

Secondly, most of the roots on your plant(s) are badly (as in severely near death) damaged. Healthy roots are white with green tips.

Third, I recommend mounting them onto a piece of wood with a thin layer of moss lightly covering the mount. You can choose to work a few of the moss strands over certain parts of the roots to keep them from dehydrating too much. When mounting they grow horizontally with the leaf tips pointing towards the ground. If you mount them the right way, you'll also notice how they would resemble the leaves of a tropical tree (like how they're originally intended to look like; you know, camouflage to prevent predation).

A little bit more about the general biology of Phalaenopsis. The roots are able to photosynthesize. Hence, there is an advantage to mounting them onto a piece of wood. Doing so would allow for photosynthesis in the roots to occur.

However, if you must pot them, you can use a clear plastic pot with large grade wood chips. If later down the line, it's not enough moisture (most of the time it is), you can put a thin layer of moss on top of the wood.

The pot should be close to the size of the living root mass.

Since, like I mentioned before, Phalaenopsis don't naturally grow upwards like how they're presented to look in stores, they will over time tip over on it's side over the edge of the pot anyways. So if you're potting them, you might as well leave them alone and let them do their thing when they lean over the edge of the pot. It's just inevitable, don't even bother trying to stake it, it'll eventually lean anyways when it starts getting larger and outgrowing your stake.

Cleaned up
 

Thanks! I'd love to try mounting them. I'm not sure where the best place to get wood is, though? Driftwood from an aquarium store? How would I water this? With a tray underneath (stones in the tray? water in the tray?)

I've also included some pictures of the plants now that I've picked out all of the -clearly- dead or dying roots... I thought at first that plant B was for sure going to die, but it looks now like it's doing much better, while plant A is clinging to life.

I'm now considering cutting the spike off plant A to let it focus its energy on roots... what do you think?

Go ahead and cut the spike as close to the plant as you can with a sterilized pair of cutters (keep the blades over a lit cigarette lighter or over the flames of a burning stove for 1 to 2 minutes; another possibility is to soak the cutters in alcohol for about 5 minutes).

You can use driftwood that's been thoroughly cleaned.

There's also cork bark. You can google this.

"Ghost wood" also works well too, but they're expensive.

Water everyday or every other day on cooler days, and once to twice a day on warmer days, using a spray bottle or run the water on the root portion of the plant under the spout of a RO/DI unit (if you have one; if not then distilled water is fine too; if you don't have this either, then tap water is okay - tap water wouldn't be my first choice though, unless your tap water is known to have low mineral content and is good).

You can save the cut spike and put the flowers in a vase for your enjoyment.

while you're searching for the proper mount, why not leave the flower spikes. Tie a slip knot around each one and hang the plants somewhere with proper light and convenient for taking down for watering. It shouldn't be much of a problem as long as you're going to mount them within a week or so.

Redperphexion, As far as mounts go you might want to consider a swamp stick. It's just a thought.

SwampStick Ceramic Orchid Mount - Home

No one suggested any treatment of the cut root area. Would it be wise to at least dust with cinnamon (from the kitchen) ?

I think the idea of mounting is not the best situation for a new ochid grower in Canada. It will be difficult to maintain any humidity during the winter. I would go with a clear plastic pot.

Someone mentioned the Better-Gro orchid mix that Lowe's carries -- it is a decent, inexpensive mix. Rinse it first - as in any bagged product there is dust/dirt that is best rinsed off.

The phal appears to be the 'Valentine's Day -- ice cube orchids' that the big stores are selling. I believe they come from Kerry's:

Kerry's

Charlie

Why not get some coconut husks - take the nut out, boil them let them dry and you can separate them longitudinally more or less in the size you want? also they are light weight.
got a bunch from the Guyanese juice guys in Brooklyn. They had a pile of discarded coconut husks that people drank.
you can mount it horizontally as well...

i just mounted some D. loddigesii keikis i received as a trade on a couple of them,
I also got some closeout phals at lowes for a dollar and I am trying out different things.
water in a vase, lava rock in a terracotta pot. will mount one or 2.

Or maybe you could go to the park - sometimes I see cut branches you could get some fir/spruce one -
or i wonder if birch would work...


stefano
stefpix.com

I would not advise cinnamon in any quantity arround the roots. It can be too drying and desicate the roots.

I've made the mistake of dusting it arround roots and those roots dried out and never really recovered.

I DO use a tiny dab on cut root ends but not for significant root removal like this.

I would advise Listerine for this sort of case. Mix a little with water and rince the whole plant, then rince again with plain water. It's done well for me when I've had to remove a lot of roots in the past.

Also wanted to say that I've had orchids recover from far less roots that these two orchids look to have left. I think you can either pot them back up in bark, or mount them and they should do fine either way.

I would bear in mind what Charlie said about mounting in Canada. I've read a lot of Canadians saying that humidity is REALLY low there. I have to water my mounted 'chid twice a day here and our humidity is a lot higher.

What about peroxyde instead of listerine?

Wow! thanks... what would I do without all this help! :D

I love the idea of mounting - it sounds (and from what I've seen, looks) so beautiful. I am hesitant, though, since they are rescues and these are my first 'chid kids. Now that you mention the humidity factor, I'm even more hesitant... although my bathroom (unfortunately) stays fairly humid after my hot morning showers... although because of this I tend to super-clean it with some fairly harsh cleaners to keep the yucky at bay.

Are orchids very sensitive to toxins and chemicals? (From what I hear they are...)

Can I pot them for now, and then mount them later? Or is moving them too much a big risk?

I like the idea of dousing them twice a day and letting them be bare rooted and dry out the rest of the time for now - I have a feeling/I hope it will help ward off bacterial growth.

Also, maybe this question is silly, but are they easy to propigate? Can I take a cutting or something to grow a baby in case they don't make it? I have a feeling they're not...

I'll address the issue of potting first then mounting later. It's not a problem if your plant is healthy by the time you decide to mount them. I don't think humidity would be that big of an issue because you're having to water so much anyways. My humidity here is not all that high, it's kinda moderate at 60% - 70%.

Although in my honest opinion, if your orchids are rescue plants, all the better to try out mounting them. It's not like they're rare. Most NOID hybrids are found everywhere and are literally somehow mass produced in countries like Taiwan, Singapore, or Malyasia. I used to work for an orchid nursery that got a 16 wheeler sized trailer full of boxes with Phals and Catts every month, sometimes there'd be two trailers full.

I recommend putting a thin layer of moss underneath the roots of the Phal and working a few strands over certain parts of the roots (just like how it'd be if a light and small patch of moss were to naturally grow onto the roots) if you decide to mount it. Makes it easier to keep moisture around the roots going, as in nature the reason why they can survive without the moss is because the trees are growing near water.

Secondly, propagating orchids is not as easy as making any old cutting and putting it in a pot. This is especially so with Phalaenopsis. The cloning process is complex and can be painstaking work for a hobbyist. I can tell you that cloning through root tips, leaf tips and meristems are all possible for Phalaenopsis, but again it's difficult and you've gotta go through a lot of research and trial and error. It's much easier to pollinate the flowers and produce seed, then send the seed to a lab until you're well equipped to sow your own seeds (again lots of research and trial and error).

To see some videos on how to pollinate an orchid, I posted a couple videos in an old thread here. You can also find them on YouTube.

Lastly, if you're constantly spraying chemicals into the air, then I'd be concerned about your orchid's health. But if it's some pine cleaner that won't touch the orchids, and it's not so strong that you can smell the pine cleaner from three rooms down the hall, then you're fine. Especially if you're not doing it everyday. Although if you feel it's a risk, it's better to err on the side of caution.

Here is another thought, since you have two. You could try one on a mount and the other in a pot and see which grows best for you.

I think Ted has a good idea, may be an interesting experiment!

I was thinking the same! I'm not sure how the one plant is going to do, though. There both ok looking, but one's got better roots and had a leaf chopped off, and then the other has few roots (although longer), healthier leaves, and is in bloom.

But yes, I think I will end up mounting one to see how I like it and whether I can care for it properly.

So I've bought some cheap orchid mix (possibly shooting myself in the foot) to test out how they survive potted. I'm concerned though because when they were barerooted, I could snip off any roots that started looking less healthy or that were clearly not going to make it. Now they're hidden... I'm not sure if it's a good idea to pull them out every so often and look. I have a feeling that would just stress them out.

I'm so excited! I'm already looking into my next plant purchase... I'd like to have a healthy plant to start with so I don't get too frustrated with these rescues.

Seems this is a catching hobby, I can feel it already!!!

I have one which had lost most roots, and I kept pulling it out to see how they were doing and it's still recovering well. Don't know if it would have recovered quicker it I hadn't kept pulling it out though :hmm

I've had three with far worse roots than yours which are recoving well so I think yours should do fine. Yes mine lost leaves, and kept loosing them for a while, but once the number or roots was enough to sustain the number of leaves it stopped dropping them and started growing both new roots and new leaves. The worst one put out very thin pathetic new leaves to begin with, but it's latest leaf is looking really healthy :)

So glad to hear it! There's hope still!

My boyfriend's mum said she'd look for some freshwater driftwood at the cottage for me this weekend! Exciting!

Whenever I deal with orchid roots, I always wet them thoroughly beforehand, they become a bit more pliable when wet. It'll limit the amount of roots you snap.

Really? Good to know cause with my other plants, I find the opposite. I figured it happens because when roots are full of water they're more turgid. I must experiment and find out!

Wetting the roots on orchids to make them more pliable is known in the orchid hobby to be true.

This holds true for many epiphytes and very few terrestrial orchids.

But...

There are always exceptions to the notion that wetting the roots will make them pliable.

In your case, you're dealing with Phalaenopsis which is an epiphyte and is known to have roots that tend to more pliable when wet.

However...

That rule changes when you're dealing with something such as Habenaria or Disas (both "terrestrials", or more accurately geophytes - both genera are pretty diverse in their growth habits and habitats, it's difficult to generalize). Bending the roots is never recommended for these group of plants. And wetting the roots will not make them pliable. Instead, like you experienced, water makes the roots more turgid for these groups of orchids. There is a reason for this...that's because certain roots become tubers. If too many roots snap, the hobbyist may unsuspectingly snap off the special roots that eventually turn into next year's growth. This is part of the reason why people complain about how Habenarias and Disas are so hard to grow (they're actually not that hard if you know a bit about their biology and ecology).

That's amazing! Thanks!!!

So now that the two are potted up, Plant B has lost 1 of it's 3 leaves, and plant A looks to be trucking along well.

After more reading, I'm wondering if I should have trimmed the roots of plant A (they were super long) before potting, because I simply wound them around the inside of the pot in a spiral before filling in with mix. Seems as though the consensus is that Phal roots should be trimmed short enough to not touch the bottom of the pot.

I've been soaking them once a day, because the mix seems truly dry after one full 24hrs. Time will tell!

I really wouldn't practice cutting anything unless they're dead. I don't like doing extra things that could cause more problems.

I would leave them. I always just wind them arround in the pot.

Excellent. Now the waiting game.

So my dog's tail somehow wagged over one of the pots yesterday. The roots on plant A were toast. I took them all off and put a tiny amount of cinnamon on the spot where I took off a bit of the main root base that wasn't looking good.

So I pulled out plant B and I had to take off 3 or 4 roots there.

I potted them in drier mix, and I'm leaving them for a week to see how they do before I do anything.

probably cutting the tail of would help the roots!

Anyway I found these really cheap great hooks fro clay pots that you can then hang on the wall [ i do it on the side of my window]. You could hang the pots above dog tail level. maybe use some twine to tie the top of the plant to the pot so if it gets knocked off the roots are less likely to move

To clarify: the roots weren't damaged by the fall (I don't think) but they had gone soft and hollow, I'm assuming from staying too damp. So it was sort of a blessing in disguise that Blue knocked them over. Good girl! lol

An update
 

So both plants have lost their roots completely. Not sure what did it, but I'm trying to move on!

I've since cut back the damaged portion of each plant (leaving no roots at all), and I've been keeping them in a shallow dish of water with just a whiff of fert in it. I've pulled them out almost daily to give them a few hours of air and to make sure they're not getting too soggy.

Much to my joy, they're both showing signs of roots developing!!! I'm not getting my hopes up, but even the sign of new un-erupted roots is an accomplishment for me. I had to share this excitement! :dance13:

I wanted to know if this was a "sphag and bag" situation... although to be honest, unless it sounds exactly like what it is, I'm not sure what this encompasses.

Any other suggestions are welcome. :)

I think no roots at all is a Sphag-n-bag situation.

Here's a link describing the steps.
Sphag-n-Bag

I think some people here have also rescued ones like this using 'water culture'. Try searching on that as I know it's been discussed arround here.