Ludisia discolor seed pod
 

:hello

I put this up earlier on the beginners section and i was told to put it up under propogation. I´m just looking out for any tips and advise. This was my earlier post:

''Hello all!

I´m new to this forum and i need some help with a ludisia orchid that i have. One or two of its flowers have formed, what i believe is seed pods. One of the flowers, has enlarged so much n it is turning green. I should mention that some weeks ago, I tried to pollinate the plant.

Well I´m a newbie with this, but if i would like to grow those ludisia seeds, what should i do and when do i know its time to pluck the pod of the flower stem?''

Well this morning i noticed a brown line running through the center of the seed pod. It is light brown in color.

This would be my first try at growing orchid seeds, if at all there is a seed in there. Can anyone help?? Do i pluck it off the plant or do i wait till it falls? Any kind of advise is really appreciated :)

In general orchid seed is commercially germinated and grown in aseptic conditions within sterile flasks on (usually) a gel type media. Search through the threads for anything mentioning "flasking" or "in vitro" and you should get an idea of what is required.

I couldn't say for sure what is specifically required to successfully raise Ludisia from seed but it should be possible.

One thing you have to consider is if it is worth the effort. It can take a number of years to get a flowering sized plant from seed. You might have more luck just creating some divisions over that period.

Other than in vitro, you could try just sowing the seed onto the potting mix. The results won't be as impressive but I have seen this work before.

Hello Bloomin Aussie,

thanks for your reply. I have a couple of questions though. When you say sowing the seed onto the potting mix, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean removing it from the seed pod and scattering on the surface of the soil or at a certain depth?

Do I pluck the pod off the plant or wait till it falls off?

I am only asking, because I´ve no idea what I´m going to do, when that pod is ready. I am surprised how fast its turning brown.

I read, that in the past, orchid growers, used to plant the seeds at the base of the root of the mother plant, in hopes that it would encourage the seed to sprout. Is this what you mean?

I dont mind the time or the effort. I am just curious, to see if i can do it :)

Yes Orchid growers used to scatter the seed at the base of the plant. The beneficial fungi that are present help to produce food for the embryo since orchid seeds have no food stores like corn or beans.
Scatter on the surface of the medium keep it moist but don't rot the roots of the mother, (a little mist on the surface). Or research invitro germination of flasking. If the pod is changing color the line may be where it is going to split open soon. The seeds are very small (like dust)

Hey John D,

thanks for that. I am pretty sure, that there are 2 seed pods now, as the second one is showing the same signs too. So i guess i´ll scatter one on the surface medium, try to see if i can obtain all the materials for flasking, and flask the other one.

I flask seed and if you saved me some seeds I would give it a try with your other methods. I have never grown ludisia from seed, might be interesting.

I've never tried, but wish you good luck.

Thanks guys, i´m gonna need it!

The odds of successfully growing large numbers of orchid seeds are through asymbiotic and symbiotic in-vitro methods. Ludisia discolor has been propagated this way.

I'm not sure about the Ludisia discolor seeds being sprinkled onto the surface of the potting medium that the mother plant is growing in will work. The type of mycorrhizal fungi that the seed needs to germinate present in the soil may not be the correct species. Which specific species of mycorrhizal fungi that does this I can't tell you, but I can say that it most likely belongs within the genus Rhizoctonia.

Also, in order for orchid seeds to be able to germinate using ex-vitro methods, the seed would have to have a small store of endosperm (food stores). To my knowledge only a small percentage of orchids have this. I know for sure you can try sowing Epidendrum, Pleione, and certain Disas using an ex-vitro method, because they have just enough endosperm to help them germinate. Although when I tried using the sprinkling of the seeds in the potting medium of Den. kingianum, I did notice how some of them turned green. So it is possible that you can try an ex-vitro method of sowing Den. kingianum as well.

One ex-vitro method of sowing orchid seeds is the sphagnum moss method. To my knowledge some people have already experimented with this method. I know some people here in the US have tried it with success. But I'm certain many more people in Europe have also used this method as well.

Although I've never done it before, I keep running across this in my research to sow orchid seeds in general. The sphagnum moss method is done by sterilizing the seeds or seed pod (if you green seed). Then you boil the sphagnum moss and put it in a glass jar then spread the seeds onto the sphagnum after the moss cools. Cover the seeds with plastic wrap and wait about a month.

Another method I've read about is using the piece of bark. I don't know specifically what kind of bark they're using though. You have to research this more, because I don't know this method too well.

As for seed pods, Troy Meyers Conservatory has a website with text and pictures you can look up on it:

Flask and Established Seedling Sales, and Flasking Programs

There are also symbiotic in-vitro methods used in Europe, particularly Germany. Look up this terrestrial orchid forum:

Terrorchid - Terrestrial Orchid Forum, Gallery & Wiki - Dedicated to the culture and care of terrestrial Orchids

One last note, it's entirely possible that Ludisia discolor does have small stores of endosperm in the seeds. Good luck.

It's possible that one of the members on terrorchids.org is also here. His screen name is berthold (both here and in terrorchid), he lives in Germany.

Thank you for that lenghty reply King of Orchids.

I have not heard of this sphagnum moss method you are talking about. Where I´d only have to boil the moss. I am aware of the more complex turkish towel method, that does involve the use of sphagnum moss. You´re not talking about that right? I think thats too complex, and flasking is alot easier.

As I have a couple of seed pods, I have decided to try out flasking, sprinkling and the bark method. I do not know for sure, if ludisia have any endosperm but I think its worth a shot. As for the bark method, I saw it on this Austrian webpage, I cant remember their names, but they said to collect the bark from a tree in the forest. I think its just necessary to collect it from a tree with significant amount of fungal growth on the bark and then mist it with water frequently.

I do not know if any of this would work, but since I have seed pods, why not give it a shot. The contamintation factor in the flasking of seed pods does scare me a quite a little.

I'm not certain about any hidden details to the sphagnum moss method, but like you said, it could be complicated. It is entirely possible that it could be the turkish towel method you're referring to.

I'll have to look.

Many terrestrial species contain some endosperm. But endosperm is not required for traditional, symbiotic germination methods. Sometimes the endosperm can help things along, but it's not enough (in any seed) to sustain a developing protocorm. EVERY orchid in the world has seed that germinates one way or another. Sowing seed in the potting media of the mother is really an attempt at symbiotic germination, and therefore would not require endosperm. Good luck.

It won't fall off. Once it starts to split, cut it off and allow it to dry in a coffee filter for a week or so. There's not a lot of fleshy tissue in these seed capsules so it should be pretty dry already. Once dry, most of the seed should come out with a few gentle taps. Just be sure to do this inside in an area with no drafts - as JohnD said, the seeds are like dust. Dry seed can be stored for quite a while so you can sow some a few different ways, and save the rest for later. By then you'll know which method gives the higher yield. ;)

I noticed one seed pod splitting yesterday. It is the largest of the two. I didn´t want to lose any of the seeds inside the pod, so I cut the pod off and I am keeping it in a dry place. I guess I will let it dry for a week then, before deciding which method is better. Thanks for the tip, I did not know that the seed pod could be kept for so long, after it has been cut away from the mother plant. :)

When storing seed, moisture is the enemy. Once it dries for a few days harvest the seed from the capsule and store the seed in a little packet. The capsule tissue can only cause you problems, no need to keep it.

If you're gonna store seeds, make sure there aren't any debris from the capsule in it.

Many places that sell orchid seeds store them at a temperature of 4 degrees C. And even then there's a shelf life. Fortunately terrestrials have a longer shelf life than epiphytes do. I'm not sure how long under refrigeration though.

Wow..4 degrees C is pretty low. Thats almost like storing red wine. But no, I do not intend to store it for longer than a week. I´ll decide which way I feel like going with the pods and try it out, hopefully by this weekend. I´m still waiting for the other seed pod to mature. I´ll remove the capsule tissue completely then, since it will only do it harm.

Thank you all very much for your advice. This has been very helpful and I´ve certainly learnt more over the past few days, than I have from the 3 or 4 books I have. haha :)