Floralia
 

I got the Tamiami vendor list from a guy on Reddit, then messaged all the import vendors to try to get an order in. Floralia was the only one that responded with a price list, and so I ordered 2 selected 5" C. loddigesii trilabelo for $50 each, and 4 4" C. trianae concolor 'Rio Yari' for $20 each. They arrived in great condition: great dark green foliage with minimal blemishes, lots of roots, and practically specimen sized. Probably more impressive than Ecuagenera. I mean these look absolutely amazing and I could just imagine how happy everyone who actually went to Tamiami and were able to pick these out for themselves would be.

I already shot an email to Steve to let him know my thoughts.

Oh, and I forgot to say they all tested positive for CymMV. :roll:

This was a $200 order and I'm getting a little tired of taking these on the chin. I'm probably planning to sell these on ebay. Their new owners will be elated at how healthy these plants look. I doubt Floralia would give me a satisfactory response, considering I sound like I'm trying to cheat him by saying these incredibly healthy looking plants are all virused. There's a 99% chance the buyers won't test them anyways, and if they do, I'll refund them and still make it on Jmoney's good vendors list. Just feeling a little miffed and nihilistic. I mean I sound like a dick, but all of your favorite vendors are doing the same thing.

Wow, that's shocking. I'd say that I hope the vendor "does the right thing" for you but with 100% infection, clearly they don't care.

As I've said elsewhere... I find the lack of responsiveness of professional growers towards known, testable pathogens to be very irresponsible.

I don't blame you for reselling on Ebay using those policies. I won't be bidding on those, though I might be tempted!

Selling these on ebay without disclosing the virus is not ethical.

I'm sorry you got a raw deal on the plants you bought, but you should try and hold the vendor accountable and not pass on your rotten luck. That's not cool.

File a claim with your credit card/payment method.

It would certainly be better to get her funds back from the vendor. But professional sellers are selling virused plants and won't refund buyers when confronted. Clearly the industry won't acknowledge a problem, and places the burden on individual buyers who choose to control for incoming pathogens. I don't fault her trying to cut her losses.

Trying to cut your losses is one thing, but engaging in the same practice that one is also complaining about is paradoxical.

If I got mugged I could cut my losses by mugging another person.

The buyer is innocent and doesn't deserve to be victim of this.

Ugh, that's really frustrating. Sorry that happened to you!

that really stinks. almost have to walk around with a test kit these days.

Yes, I am sorry for coming out of the gate hot. I don't blame you for being upset at all Katsu. It's super unfair that floralia won't stand by their plants.

And somehow intentionally perpetuating that problem is an appropriate response? That's....not actually how these things work.

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Was that stated in this thread? I don't see it.

An astonishingly high portion of plants I have gotten from Brazil have Cymmv. It's not just floralia.

Most infected cattleyas look and grow fine with it, atleast under ideal conditions for some period of time. I am not sure how it affects the plants long term since I dispose of any I find infected at time of purchase.

The unfortunate thing is Cymmv spreads easily and is found very commonly with Cattleya, so you either commit to finding and destroying infected plants or accept that over time it will spread to most of the collection.

Ironically the cattleyas that are usually clean are the cheap mericlone hybrids coming from Taiwan and Thailand.

I'm sorry that happened, but it seems to me that you reselling them to unsuspecting buyers on ebay is just as bad, if not worse.

I fully agree with the others about not passing plants on--an eye for an eye and all...
That stated, perhaps this should be addressed from another angle: chances of getting Agdia to provide onsite testing at the next Tamiami/Pacific Orchid Expo/Etc...and establish a viral threshold; perhaps if >20% of plants from a given vendor test positive, then that vendor is barred from the show going forward [and asked to pack things up]...
Just my 3¢

Floralia might have known they were selling infected plants, and they might not have known. You don't have the benefit of that doubt.

not that anyone really wants my 2 cents, but since I may have instigated some recent viral shenanigans, I will offer them anyway.

It sucks to get virused plants, I have bought a few select plants that tested positive (I have been able to send these back but it is still disappointing to not add a plant to your collection you were really looking forward to).

It is obviously much worse when you get burned. However in my opinion it is unethical to sell known virused plants without disclosing that knowledge. I agree with Ray that this may be worse in some ways than inadvertently selling a healthy-appearing plant that is virused upon testing. Most people don't test, and I personally would never unload a virused plant without the recipient knowing that plant is virused. That means I don't bring them to the OS show table, orchid shows, raffle table, etc. That is why most of the highly-respected heirloom cattleya growers will disclose the virus status, as many historic cultivars have no known "clean" pieces.

That being said, it's a free country, and it's not a crime to sell virused plants. I suppose you could get your CC company involved, but the first and only time I did that was in regards to Norman's basically defrauding me (my first and last order with those crooks), and the CC took their side anyway. (I threatened to cancel my CC and then they gave me my money back, but it wasn't Norman's money). Also if I were to, I don't know, rob a bank, or smuggle a new orchid species (I am not inclined to do either), I would certainly not tell anyone of my activities.

I don't like the idea of anyone selling a known virused plant, orchid or otherwise. My hope is that Katsucats words were just sarcasm, which is the way I originally thought of it, based on being really ticked off at the seller. I give the benefit of the doubt as to whether he would actually do so. We don't know, because he hasn't responded to anything since his original comment. Although complaint was made, I'm leaving it as is because of the beneficial opinions and conversations due to the original post.

Meanwhile, is it illegal to sell a virused plant? I don't know. My guess would be not unless you know and fail to disclose. But that's just my non-legal opinion, albeit semi-educated.

I've bought quite a few plants over the years, orchid and otherwise. Some places I've purchased from, for example, grocery stores, WallyWorld. garage sales, etc., I seriously doubt are all virus tested plants. We all know some states are much more stringent about any plant material imported to their state, some less. The horticultural world is a huge industry.

I don't know if any orchid vendors test their plants for virus before selling, but would imagine most don't due to cost. There are numerous orchid vendors who buy wholesale and sell retail. If one wants to assure they receive only plants that are free from virus, then one should only buy from a vendor who guarantees virus free plants. Or ask the vendor to test prior to buying the plant. Or ask their policy if, on arrival, the plant tests positive for virus. In essence caveat emptor. There's my :twocents:

They made an exception
 

It appears Floralia made an exception for me and refunded the order amount, a resolution I'm satisfied with. But it doesn't really give confidence for future orders. Here's the email text they sent:
For what it's worth, their price list and website actually did not mention any terms regarding viruses.

It looks like some ebay buyer will be spared.

As for people telling me that it's unethical to sell virused plants, I agree. But your criticisms ring hollow to me when the overall orchid community turns a blind eye to the problem, with many members here and elsewhere even defending businesses selling virused plants. No one wants a virus, but no one cares that much about the prospect of getting them. Here are a few that I've heard for not testing:

• It would be impractical.
• Most orchids are virused anyways, but undetectable.
• Viruses aren't all bad.
• It doesn't matter when there are no symptoms.
• Viruses don't matter when plants are healthy.

So the only functional difference here is that I have tested all my plants, 100+ of them, with my own money, and threw away the positive ones even when they had no symptoms. I've spent at least $2000 -- just on tests.

Every vendor out there knows that they have viruses, even the ones that have a no virus guarantee. I've spoken to a couple that would admit that up to 10% of plants are probably virused if someone did a randomized test, but no one is going to. So how is it more ethical to just feign ignorance about it? If I sell a plant that's virused, it's deemed unethical. Nurseries don't know whether an orchid is individually virused, but they know they are selling virused plants. Then, it would seem that for example if I do a batch test of 10 orchids with one well, and a positive signal indicates that between 1-10 orchids are virused, then selling these would be okay? It seems like the less someone tests, the more okay it becomes.

I've lost hundreds of dollars over this double standard, and if we collectively as a community turn a blind eye to big businesses selling virused plants because it's financially impractical for them, then why should I be the one absorbing that cost? Why am I being held to a higher standard than all the highly rated vendors that people rave about here that sell virused plants?

As shown in the pictures, no one who posted in this thread would have tested them if that's what you received. They'd be sitting happily in your collections, like the thousands of other collections with plants from venerable industry experts of the likes of Jerry Meola, Steve Champlain, and Steve Moffitt. Your orchid society might have hosted them for talks and raffled these to your members. Those members might have showed off their blooms to Orchidboard. There must have been at least dozens of people that bought from Floralia at Tamiami. Hundreds of people partake in Rare Earth's semi-annual sales. Big Leaf, Hausermann, SBOE, et. al. are almost universally raved about as role models of the orchid industry. Everyone is happy until I spend $5 on a test strip.

I'm sad to say that if I sell a virused plant, I would still be in the top 10% of orchid vendors having respectable policies as long as I refund the 0.1% of buyers that test. Those are the economics that everyone here defends.

It's moot in this instance since Floralia took responsibility. I won't post about this again, since we all know what's right and wrong, but also we all know what's acceptable. It's not a reality that I want to accept, but it's one that everyone had before I even bought my first orchid.

Sorry for being dramatic I felt like I needed to iterate through my thoughts. I simply can't continue to buy orchids if every purchase is going to be a dice roll on how much money goes straight into the trash. Everyone else here has those same dice, but very few people roll them. I can't be blamed when I'm the one taking precautions. That's my point.

P.S. First Orchid Nursery of Apopka, FL, part of Florida's "best kept secret" according to this video (https://youtu.be/86sd6Y_D42c?si=U__o8fk6ExsoWXeZ&t=608), sells mericlones wholesale. I don't know what their virus rate is, honestly, but what I do know is that at least dozens or likely hundreds of people must have bought plants from the same batch as the one I got. I'd email some of them, but ebay makes buyer's account names private. Food for thought. 99% of their buyers are going to be satisfied with that purchase, because they never test. It was a nice plant for the price. The rest of them are going to give them a pass due to the goodwill and reviews of that 99%. This would be true whether I had a one-off ORSV positive or even if the whole batch was hypothetically virused. As long as no one knows which it is, it's an acceptable outcomes since it's impractical to expect them to test each and every plant. But once they do test, it becomes downright unethical for them to sell them. It kind of makes the case for never testing, doesn't it? The certainty only seems to lose goodwill, despite the costs.

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

It's more like this. If a company sold lead crystal decanters, and everyone played down the risks of lead because they're just so beautiful to look at. Then a scientist buys one and runs some tests and tries to sound the alarm about the negative health effects. But everyone came up with justifications such as, "There are tons of pollutants that we are in contact with everyday," or, "Lead is fine as long as we exercise and take care of our bodies." And they continue buying lead decanters anyways.

Then is it right for that scientist to resell the lead decanter that he purchased? Is it ethical? Arguably not. But is it acceptable? Yes, it is. Not because he thinks the buyer should store wine in lead, but because everyone else had accepted it.

If someone is an activist against homelessness, and goes to the local town hall to argue against ordinances and gentrification without much success. Then raising the prices on his own rental property to keep up with market conditions, so he could afford the mortgage, does not invalidate his activism.

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

I frankly do not care whether Floralia "knows" they're selling plants with viruses. Everyone knows nurseries sell plants with viruses, including nursery owners themselves. Most people excuse it when there is no knowledge of a specific plant being virused. A lot of people have trouble thinking statistically. If 10% of the orchids in a nursery is virused, then on average they are selling a virused plant for every 10 plants that they sell. It's not a matter of "if" they are. They are. You don't care that they are selling virused plants. Everyone's complaint has been that it's wrong to know the specific plant that's virused.

This is probably the most unhinged post I’ve seen since shadeflower got banned…

Glad to know you think so. I guess exposing a tacit understanding is too much for some to handle. I personally think it's unhinged to be offended when someone states an unspoken truth that a certain rate of virus is "acceptable" to the community, even defended. I guess it's upsetting when things that people take for granted are called into question.

I tried to avoid a post like what I'm about to write because understanding the issues involved requires a lot of previous learning, which is far beyond the scope of an online discussion.

It is impossible to eradicate an infections disease from a large population of susceptible organisms. It's not merely practically impossible, it's theoretically impossible. There is no way for any vendor to sell 100% virus free plants. Many people wish with all their hearts it were different, but that's reality.

Most viruses in plant collections are spread by mealybugs and other arthropods. Humans do it too, but various plant viruses have evolved to spread via arthropods, via water splashing and via touch of leaf to leaf.

It is impossible to have a test with a zero false negative rate. That means some plants with infections virus will always be missed with testing. They will continue to infect other plants.

There are no infectious diseases which have been completely eliminated. People say smallpox and polio were eliminated, but they were not: Polio circulates in a few locations; active polio and smallpox virus exists in multiple lab freezers across the world, waiting to be released by accident or intent.

Quarantine has never worked and cannot work for many theoretical and practical reasons. It was invented before infectious diseases were understood. It is emotionally appealing to many but it is ineffective in preventing spread of infectious diseases.

Next, suppose it were possible absolutely to identify clean and infected plants. Consider what a nursery with a high positive test rate would need to do. They would need to test every plant serially over a period of years, ensure there are no bugs in their growing area ever, ensure human gardeners use strict sterile technique and never make mistakes, then destroy all their infected stock, sanitize their entire grow area, and buy recently tested plants to restock. But no nursery would be financially able to do the first and third steps and survive. Meanwhile all those plants are gone forever. Due to CITES regulations it is not possible legally to bring new clones of many currently grown orchids into cultivation. Those plants would disappear from legal cultivation.

The second two steps are in fact impossible because, first, there is no way to sanitize an environment and eliminate 100% of infectious virus. Second, there will always be infected plants that test negative.

So, no, nobody here is suggesting we ignore the issue. We are suggesting the only effective means of control is individuals using careful technique in handling their plants. A plant a vendor sells that tests negative may still have infectious virus.

You didn’t expose anything and I’m not offended. What you planned to do and your “logic” made zero sense. Punishing the “orchid community” by knowingly selling virused plants defies any sort of logic and is morally reprehensible. It’s like a small child that didn’t get what they want, so now it’s temper tantrum time. I have two young boys, so I’m keenly familiar with the symptoms of a temper tantrum. Seriously, that’s the type of post you look back on and say to yourself, what the hell was I thinking??

I empathasize with your frustration, katsucats, as I have spent over $500-700 on virus testing (and yes, all that means is that I can say my collection has all tested negative over the past 2 years, not that it is "virus free", which may or may not be the case).

I'm not sure there is a double standard here. I do not expect a commercial operation to test all their plants and thus I will accept them *inadvertently* sending me a virused plant. I also do not expect a hobbyist selling plants on ebay to test their plants. I suppose that there is some "penalty" on your end for caring to test your plants, since then you might find out it is diseased and then are left with that unwelcome information.

However what you advertised doing is grossly unethical (as you actually admitted) and perpetuates a wrong that you (and believe it or not, many others here) are offended by. If anyone, commercial or hobbyist, knowingly sent me a virused plant without disclosing that information, I would be absolutely IRATE. You had best believe I would have another list for anyone with the nerve to do that. It may be the customer's responsibility to test and many who grow orchids obviously do not, but to send a virused plant to an unsuspecting customer undermines any credibility you might have had with the whole virus topic to begin with. It is *absolutely* worse than sending a healthy appearing but virused plant in good faith. I don't need to harp on what damage that plant might do on an innocent customer's collection. If you somehow snuck a virused plant back to someone who wronged you, that's revenge. Fine. Personally I'm not opposed to revenge. But sending a diseased plant to someone whose only "crime" is not testing for virus is disgusting and shameful.

That being said, I'm not naive enough to think this doesn't happen in the orchid world, and much worse things are done in the name of business. But I think you are not going to find much support for this practice in the court of public opinion.