Browning and blackening of leaves
 

::hello: Good day members, it's been awhile since I visited the Board, I will try to keep better contact.
Now the problem at hand, I've been having browning and blackening of a number of my plants. The problem is not restricted to any one type of plant, it is happening to my Maxillaria, Paphs, Phrags and 2 of my Zygos. Not all my plants are having this problem (I have about 85 plants). I've moved them around my Florida room thinking maybe there might be to much or to little light. I would appreciate if one of my esteemed members could give me some suggestions or know what is wrong. See attached pictures. Waiting for an answer, Zoren...:bowing...

What is your fertilizing routine? How often, how much, method (slow release/mixed with water)

Definitely a possibility of fertilizer issue.... eg. too concentrated .... or even accumulated fertilizer residual contents in the potting media over time.

Looks like erwinia and/or anthracnose to me...

I want to thank the both of you for a quick reply to my thread.My fertilizing routine is every watering at 1/4 tsp/gallon of either K-Lite or 20/20/20 (I usually use K-Lite). I flush my plants usually once a month to every 6 weeks. And, once a month (or longer), I add KelpMax, K-Lite and Inocucor-Garden Solution to my 4th watering (I got this Root growth, microbe stimulant and fertilizer routine from Ray of 'First Ray'((he is aklso a Senior Member of the Board)). As I said it seem to be happening to only a few plants. Like all of us I've lost a number of plants. I try to replace the ones I've lost with the same plants, if I can find them and I liked them in the first place. I've started collecting species plants and I'm always looking for fragrant ones. I usually buy my species and hard to get plants from Andy's Orchids in California. He's recommendations for the plants I like has been very good. I also buy from Elegant Orchids here in Florida, they have changed owners and Melissa is trying hard to purchase plants for the orchid collector (they have a large commercial floral business). Again thank you for your suggestions, let's see if anyone can come up with more ideas. As always, Zoren!!!

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

Hello again Ray, hope everything is Ok. I knew you would come up with an answer I would have to look up and you didn't fail me. I will look into your analysis ASAP. Zoren...........

Zoren .... if it really is fungal, then better isolate those plants and pop some systematic fungicide on them.

Or maybe put fungicide on all of them. Do you have good air circulation in your growing area?

South Park, I'm going to use Physan20 directly on the effected plants and spray the rest of them, starting tomorrow. Thank you again. Zoren...

"1/4 teaspoon per gallon K-Lite or 20-20-20 at every watering" tells us little. How often do you water?

Also, 1/4 teaspoon K-Lite is about 40 ppm N, while for a 20%N formulation it's more like 66 ppm N. That's a big difference, and coupled with the frequency, will tall us a lot more info.

How long since the affected plants were repotted? Despite periodic flushing, residue accumulation can also be toxic.

Am I correct to assume you're still growing in super-hot conditions? That would suggest rapid drying, which accelerates residue buildup.

If you're dealing with a systemic infection, Physan isn't going to do a damned thing to help. If you've been using the Garden Solution properly (3 TBSP/gal, monthly), I find it hard to believe you've contracted a disease. If, on the other hand, you have used Physan or any disinfectant, itnhas killed all of the beneficial microbes.

Ray good morning. I water one to two times per week (Yes I'm still dealing with hot conditions--I have put in a 14M-BTU portable air conditioner (not a swamp cooler). Since it is summer I usually turn the AC on when it gets to 88F in the room, some times lower--I set it at 80F which all the orchids I have will tolerate well. I also run a Humidifier to compensate for lose by running AC. I also run the AC and humidifier from 10pm to about 7-8AM, in this heat I can bring the temperature down to about 70F (in autumn and winter it will go down to about 64F). As for re-potting generally 1 to 2 years depending on the type of orchid and the medium it is planted in. I have some orchids that are re-potted over the 2 year time frame. As I wrote before I flush every 4-6 weeks. As to fertilizing, I use K-Lite mostly (I don't combine fertilizers), at less once/week (I don't fertilize plants at every watering if more then once/week). I might use 20/20/20 maybe once every 3-6 months. As to how much Pysan20 I use, I only use it if I detect a problem. And I usually spray all my plants at the same time if I see what I think is a problem. As to my use of K-Lite, Kelp Max and InocucorGS (1.5oz/Gallon), I do this every 4-6 weeks as per all directions. I don't feel that my occasional use of Physan20 would destroy the healthy microbes of the InocucorGS based on my routine of 4-6 week application. Ray I'm not quite sure I can put my finger on the problem, because I feel if the problem was fungal or bacterial it would have effected all my plants. Because I water all my plants communally, in the same water and fertilizer water. I see no problems with my other plants (they are flourishing beautifully). The problem is with about 10 plants out of 85, I've had the problem of a while, I came to the Board to see if We could solve the problem. As always you give me 'food for thought', if you or anyone else can come up with suggestions I would appreciate them. As always Zoren.... P.S., I didn't realize how much I missed the Board, I will try to come on-line to the Board more offten.

I can’t offer any advice on what’s ailing your plants, but I used to water communally to until I lost one plant and almost lost a second to some type of fungal disease. Since most of my plants stayed healthy or at least asymtomatic, I don’t think susceptibility is uniform. I also don’t know if continued exposure would have eventually resulted in infection of the rest of my plants. I wouldn’t completely dismiss the idea of a pathogen and maybe err on the safe side and at least exclude the affected plants from communal watering.

Zoren, Physan definitely kills the microorganisms in Garden Solution, and it does leave a residue in the medium that can kill them a future application.

Zoren ----- there is a possibility that the issue isn't related to the shared water. But I have heard of 1 case where a enthusiast hobby grower lost approximately 30 percent of his collection due to the spread of a pathogen in the shared water.

Do you have fungicides like mancozeb, thiomyl/cleary's 3336, etc?

Thank you all for your great suggestions, it seems that I probably have a number of different things happening at once. I've decided that I will water my
infected/problem plants separately. South Park, I do not have any fungicides (I've had no need for them before). Ray, do you feel that I am killing the microbes in Garden Solution even though I don't use it often or allot of it. I use allot more Garden Solution more often by far. So can you give me other suggestions to help with my problem. I will be keeping a close eye on the plants I've already treated hoping to see improvement. I have to make a correction I only have 75 plants, looking for more. I'm trying to replace a few plants that I really liked in the Species Phalaenopsis family, I'm also looking for Encyclia, maybe some of the Board members can give me good Orichid nurseries to look into. Zoren........

I can just pass on some second-hand information from the experience of an acquaintance. After losing close to half of her extensive orchid collection to a mystery disease, she had soil and plant tissue tested at a laboratory. This gave her a definite diagnosis of Fusarium. Advice from the lab was to destroy infected plants. Topical fungicides (such as physan) are not effective. She has lost a lot of plants, is now working on intense treatment with systemic fungicides, alternating Clearys and Heritage. Infected plants will never be cured, but she has succeeded in stopping the spread and getting some healthy offsets.
I hope this is not what you are dealing with. If you really want to know, get in touch with a lab that does soil and plant tissue analysis. They will let you know what samples they need, and what it will cost. Many plant problems can have similar symptoms, it's really not possible to tell for sure from looking at it.
Please keep us posted, and good luck.

Thank you Arizona Jeanie for the information, I will look into a Lab if the problem gets worse, right now I will try to treat the problem ones and hope that they are not like what your friend experienced. Zoren...

Thanks for letting me know Zoren. Know what you mean. I didn't have much need for fungicides etc too.

I do keep a bunch of different kinds of fungicides and other goodies --- just in case.

I have only about half the number of plants as you. I grow most of my plants in quincan gravel (local scoria rock pieces), and I use a 9 litre hand-held garden sprayer with hose/nozzle attachment ----- so that I just use the long 'wand' to get the nozzle around the sides of the pseudobulbs, and blast the water on (and around) the pseudobulbs/stems of the orchids. My pots are pretty good draining ones - so the combination of the scoria and good air circulation and good draining pots has worked really well.

But I'm thinking that if I had double the number of plants - it would take me a lot longer to water hehehehe. You certainly have a very nice sizeable collection!!!

One of the nice things about using Garden Solution is that it 1) predates pathogens, 2) inoculates the rhizosphere with antibiotics that prevent future outbreaks, all while 3) beefing up the health of the plants.

Once you start a regular regimen, no disinfectants should ever be used - or be necessary, for that matter.

South Park, I will back off from buying fungicide for the moment. I didn't recognize quincan gravel or scoria rock, I looked it up saw it is Lava rock (that I know). Do you plant your Orchids out doors, do you have a house? I plant my plants in a 90 square foot Florida room (an inclosed indoor terrace). I live on the fourth floor of a Condominium, my Florida room faces 225 degress SW, I get the most Sun and Heat (the room has had temperatures of 110 degrees F) in the afternoon. I have put in a 14M-BTU Portable A/C, I run the A/C at night from 9pm to around 7am, so that my plants have a change in temperature. During the day I have to keep a eye on the temperature in the room (it's a little better in the winter, but, it's still Florida. I also put in a humidifier to keep the humidity up at night and low humidity days. I seem to be able to grow some of the more difficult types of Orchids (I only grow Orchids). I have Phrags, Maxilliarias, Species Paphs, Species Phals, Encyclias (some species), Bulbifilums, Psychopsis (Mariposa Peloric), a few in the Cattleya Alliance, Dendrochilum (species), Oncda, Oncidiums, Zygos (having problems), Bllra, Miltonia,Gongora, Myrmec,Dendrobiums and Ryncholaelia. I have one Hybrid Phal and no Vandas (I tried they won't grow in-doors). It is very strange that I haven't been able to grow Regular Phals and my species Phals grow like crazy (most are sequential) I have allot of sequential plants. I have a number of Cattleya's but, I had trouble with them blooming (I think I might have some Clones-If they don't bloom soon I will get rid of them and start all over again)((such is the life of an Orchid enthusiast)). I have tried growing Semi Hydroponically with little success (I do have a few left- I used to have about 90 or 100 plants I've lost allot). I grow now in Orchiata, Sphagnum moss, Hydroton and Charcoal (or a combination of all three). Enough about me, let me know what you are planting, what type of Orchids. Hope I didn't go over board with my Orchid Farm (ha!ha!). Looking foward to your next text. Zoren............

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 PM ----------

Ray, that is what is so confusing to me, Iv'e been doing the Kelp Max, K-lite and Garden Solution for about a year. Once a month, I think Iv'e only been out of routine a couple of times. I've never had a problem with fungus. The last time we communicated the discussion had to do with Algae in my SH plants, I found you are correct, the algae has helped in the growth of a few of my plants. The algae may look ugly but it is helping. You were also correct that not all Orchids will grow in a SH environment. Thanks again for all your help in the past, the present and hopefully the future. Zoren....

Thanks for describing your growing conditions Zoren.

I grow my most of my orchids outdoors ..... well, it's semi-outdoors as can be seen in the photo taken an hour ago. The sunlight shines on the orchids directly for many hours of the day. I put some plants that can't handle the most intense light further in. Air movement is really quite good. Naturally breezy most of the time.

Most of the orchids are growing in the lava rock (scoria rock) - we call it locally as 'quincan gravel' (pronounced kwing-kun gravel).

My fredclarkeara/catasetum plants have lava rock surrounding their spaghnum balls around the roots. And my paphiopedilums are growing in quincan too -- like a paph. saint swithin 'jill' (in foreground), and two small paph. wossner black wings.

The fredclarkeara (fdk.) plants are currently undecided about whether to go into dormancy or not during the 'winter' here, which doesn't really get much below 15 degree C ..... occasionally could get down to 11 or 12 C ...but that's quite rare. So the fdk have most of the leaves fallen off ..... but having 1 or 2 green leaves that just remain like that --- while 1 plant is even sprouting new growth.

All my cattleya type plants, and vanda, and oncidium are growing in quincan too. One oncidium -- a twinkle, is almost about to flower - flower buds almost opening. A couple of catts are having buds developing in their sheaths at this time.

This photo is not showing my full collection. I have other orchids in other areas around the house.

There's my water sprayer with that watering stick in the foreground. I just use tap water for watering --- occasionally fertilising -- around 1 time per month, and using cal-mag 1 time per month. I'm sure that I could fertilise more ----- like 2 times per month. But once a month has been just fine here.

The catts can be watered every day here --- but I usually back off on the frequency to avoid algae build-up around the roots...... so this is probably where the 'allow to dry a bit' recommendation can be beneficial --- just to avoid some issues of algae growing on roots, then algae decaying or algae suffocating roots, then rotting, then leading to possible issues.

You're definitely a keen orchid grower too! And it sounds like you've generally had no issues for a long time until recently. How long roughly had you been using communal watering or shared water? Had you been doing that for many years?

About the catts blooming. A lot of them need enough light apparently ----- to get their leaves to be a lightish green colour. Lightish green is usually a good thing. If there's not enough light, the leaves often be dark green ----- which is often a kind of visual indicator that there's not enough light, and reduced chances of blooming.

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...2&d=1561683300

Whoa, Nellie! I have NEVER said that algae helps. Unless it gets so bad that it clogs up air flow, it doesn't really hurt anything, but it is usually a sign that you are overfeeding.

I have also stated - opposite of what you wrote - that any plant CAN be grown in S/H culture, but that does not mean that anyone can grow any plant that way, because of differences in other aspects of your cultural conditions.

Ray, I have to apologize (old age is taking over-ha!ha!) I don't remember the discussion. Maybe my conditions and lack of experience is why I've had trouble growing S/H, I will continue trying with plants that seem to grow S/H for me. Zoren...

South Park, I will be sending you some pictures or a video of my Orchid Room. You have very nice plants. I used to grow Catasetum, Cynoches and Clowesa orchids. I was given bad instructions on how to care for them, so I lost all of them. Besides they are all Deciduous growing and I like to see leaves on my plants all year round. But, I will probably try them again they are very fragrant. I've been seeking out Fragrant, Species and Sequential growing orchids lately. I like to see orchids blooming more than once per year.

South Park, if you don't mind me asking do you work or are you retired. I've been retired for about 13 years (actually 16 years if we count tome on disability). I used to work in the Bindery industry which is part of the Printing industry in New York City. The bindery industry doesn't really exit any longer, it was absorbed by the Printing industry. I moved to Florida with my wife about 27 years ago.

I've given you a little of background, if you feel comfortable we can progress from here. I will try to take the pictures or video tomorrow. Zoren....

Know just what you mean Zoren about the deciduous nature of that catasetum-type plants. I live in north-east Australia --- and the winter temps are not extreme - and these particular plants are pretty much still sprouting new growth even when the most-recent big pseudobulb has lost most leaves except for 1 to a few leaves still remaining - halted growth - while the new growth is coming out. So basically just keeping the roots wet a bit --- but not as wet as during summer.

Thanks for mentioning your work background! I'm still working over here. The work isn't related to orchids. But I think that I could definitely picture myself working in an orchid nursery! Like all, or most people here on the forum, I love orchids. Not just orchids, but other plants too.

I have never been to Florida before. Would love to visit there one day! I once lived and worked in Colorado - for several years. There sure are fantastic places in U.S. Orchids likely have a hard time growing in Colorado though hahaha. But interestingly, I hear there are orchid nurseries - even in places like Louisville, CO.

Orchids talk.....
 

:hello , South Park, you probably have hotter temperatures then I do in the summer months, but the air is drier. In the late 60's I was looking into moving my family to Australia (I think your government was offering some form of incentive to move there). I have a nephew and his family that is moving to Australia in the near future (his wife is from there). Like you, one day I'd like to visit your country.

I tried to do a video to long so I'm sending pictures of my collection sent 10 pics, hope you like. Well, I'd like to keep in touch with you, we might be able to help each other with our orchids. Do you purchase your plants locally or do you buy from different nurseries in and outside your country. Would you know of any good and reputable nurseries I might be interested in to expand my collection, I still have some room (Ha!Ha!). Again Zoren..:waving

Being a big fan of Occam's Razor and looking at your pictures, I would say your plants are being given too much water. My indoor orchids (those in bloom) that are in bark get a drink about once a week and those in moss get a drink every 10 days or so depending on how moist the moss feels. They are also all subjected to good air flow.
The only ones getting a drink more than once a week are the plants outdoors which get filtered morning sun and good breezes. They get a drink 2 to 3 times a week if it has been a dry spell. Where they are located gets to the mid 80's frequently.
So are you checking for moisture before you water or just watering on a schedule? and Do you have good airflow around your plants?
Not to say that you have not picked up some insidious disease along the way, just seeing if watering may be your issue with indoor plants.

Orchids talk.....
 

Gil, when I water I always check to see if they need watering or fertilizing. The different varieties of plants that I have require different watering times. I live in South Florida and all my plants are in a 90 square foot area, the temperatures are generally very high (I also face SW, which is the hottest time of the day). As for air circulation, I have 3 portable fans and 1 ceiling fan, I also have a portable A/C that I run during the day (if it gets to hot-I've had temperatures of 110 degrees). I run the A/C at night I can get the temperature down to 64 in the winter (sometimes) and if it's not to hot at night down to about 70 degrees. I have a few hanging plants that need watering 2-3 times per week (in Summer), I also have a humidifier (I've had humidity as high as 90 percent and higher. I have never had any kind of fungus or disease in my plants, I have only had to ants and a few spiders and non of them are harmful to my plants. My Florida room is enclosed and I live on the 4th floor of a Condo. Thank you for your concern. Zoren....:cool:

Sounds like you have it all covered so I guess I really don't have any other ideas. I lived in Fl back in the early 70's so I know how the humidity and temperatures can be. Best of luck and hope you get it solved.

Excellent photos Zoren! Because you had contemplated on moving to Australia in the past --- we could say that you have some ties with Australia hahaha. Nice.

You certainly have a big collection. And very nice views of water outside as well. Your area looks relaxing.

Answering your question of whether I buy locally ---- most -- or nearly all of my orchids are purchased online .... from established/reputable orchid nurseries within Australia that happen to have options for shipping. I have ebay purchases as well. When I first started orchid growing -- about 35 years ago or so, there was a nursery that we could just go to --- to buy plants, open to the public pretty much all week during normal hours. That nursery isn't around anymore - although, there are open-by-appointment ones, which I have never tried before. I prefer non-appointment ones.

Generally no issues with online-bought ones - typically in very good - usually excellent - condition. I have had only 1 hard-to-treat assumed-fungal case from an online-bought plant ..... but is under control now - finally.

I did purchase a few plants from an orchid fair recently. We don't have these sorts of events much - hence the online purchases haha.

Well, I answered your text before, but I don't think it went through, so i'll re-write it. I have been trying to grow for about 15 years. I have only started understanding how much environment is so important to good growth (about 3 years). The water you see is a large pond or small lake all how you view it, yes it is very relaxing here.

I've never ordered from Ebay, was your experience a good one? My go to online grower is Andy's Orchids, California, he specializes in species plants, have always received plants in excellent condition. I go to Elegant Orchids about 20 miles away, I like going to nurseries you get to see what your paying for on the spot. I'm always looking for new sources to buy the types of plants I like. I look for species, ever growing (sequential) and fragrant orchids mostly. Can give me some names of nurseries in Australia that are good, honest and inexpensive who ship to US. Zoren....

Hi Zoren. I've mainly had very good dealings on ebay. It's necessary to review the sellers ratings, and number of ratings. And some sellers on ebay are well-known to the orchid growing community, or are people well-known to orchid groups - honest and reliable, and experienced growers. This helps a lot.

There are certainly other sellers on ebay that sell good plants, but sell small seedlings for prices that you might pay for a big plant. There are cases of this. But then it is really up to buyers to decide how much they want the small seedling. I have purchased a few of these small seedlings before ----- which will certainly be taking years to get to flowering age heheh. Otherwise, I tend to purchase flowering-size plants.

I'm not sure if any nurseries here in Australia ship plants overseas. I think the Australian nurseries tend to import plants from overseas in flask form, as that addresses a lot of biosecurity concerns anywhere. I think a good way to scout around for possible exporters of plants from Australia is maybe through facebook -- eg. at cattleya growers facebook page, or some orchid society facebook pages, like brisbane orchid society. Maybe even american orchid society members can give some nice leads on exporters. Flasks will probably be the easiest route.....but unfortunately (as we know) will take an incredibly long time for flask plants to get to flowering size. Full-size plants would take so much paper-work, and time and money ----- and always chances of not surviving the trip, including fumigation/quarantine - in which a thousand dollars could just be wasted if the plants don't survive.

Looking at your initial pictures, I have orchids that look exactly the same. Over the past year, I have been able to rule out watering issues (over or under watering) and bacterial infection.

In some cases, specifically for catts, increasing calcium in the water and adding oyster shell to the potting media helped.

In a few cases, moving the plant to lower light helped (but the damaged areas of the leaves remain).

I definitely have a fungal situation, and dendros are particularly susceptible. For those, so far the only fungicide that has made a difference has been mancozeb.

I have also tried diluted rubbing alcohol on leaves where I suspect insects, and pesticides containing imidacloprid for suspected mealy bugs.

I typically remove the damaged portion of the leaf or the entire leaf for containment.

Although I have different varieties of orchids with black and brown spots, I suspect they have different ailments. The dendros are the least able to cope, while the catts rally and carry on.

By the way, I also use Garden Solutions and K-Lite and kelp...