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  #11  
Old 09-21-2013, 01:13 AM
james mickelso's Avatar
james mickelso james mickelso is offline
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For those wqho struggle to go from moss to bark....what size bark are you using? It makes a difference. I always take rescues out of the awful, horrid, nasty, fungus riddled moss and plant in medium grade hard (orchiata) bark with 1/4 to 1/2 inch size charcoal, and sponge rock. The "air roots" and those that survived being strangled in sopping wet moss do very well in the bark. I'm puzzled by you not being able to pot into bark mix. And getting root rot. Even in Texas where it is hooooooootttttt I wonder why the rot. Small size (1'4 inch and less) bark would not be good because it stays too wet down in the middle and would promote rot as would some of the softer barks. Love a better description of your bark mix. Moss is a good medium as long as it is used very loosely so it doesn't compact or stay wet. lava cinder is very good too and stays damp because it has lots of very small holes where water can slowly wick out and help keep the roots slightly damp but not wet.
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2013, 07:24 AM
Orchid Whisperer Orchid Whisperer is offline
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Hi James

In really hot or dry climates I know some growers that can't use bark - it simply dries too fast. I know one grower in Wyoming that must use it for Phals (it would kill mine in Georgia)
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2013, 07:59 AM
RosieC RosieC is offline
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I've been thinking about this based on various things I've read recently and trying to work out the reason. I don't really know the answer but here are some thoughts...

Temperature play a big part in this. As you say James, staying too wet in the middle causes problems, and I think you (possibly someone else) have said in a different thread in the last few months, that it's cold and damp that really does the damage.

But in cooler climates it's hard to avoid that with either moss or bark unless you are willing to heat the house just for the orchids. I don't and I have a lot of orchids, I don't know, but I would guess beginners don't either. So... in everything except the summer (and even some of the summers we get here) the temps in my house range from 60-70, at this time of year we are mostly around the 65 mark, similar in spring, in winter it can drop down to 60 when the heating is off (all night and a lot of the day as well) will be about 67 morning and evening, and will only go up to 70 if we are feeling chilly and have decided to have a little more heat.

So... (talking about Phals here, I actually grow cool loving in orchids in moss anyway)

a. Phal roots in moss struggle because the cool climate leads to slow drying but also the cool climate combined with always damp is a problem.

b. Phals established in bark need the watering dropped, sometimes as low as every 10-14 days (although I know they really struggle if they don't dry in that time and I prefer closer to 7 days). The cool weather means it takes that long for them to dry (even in really large bark). In the summer warm weather I can water even if it's not fully dry, but if I water before they are fully dry in the cooler weather the roots start to show signs of stress. I've lost orchids this way in the past, a heat mat saved others but I can't practically put all my phals on heat mats.

c. Phals established in moss need more moisture around their roots. In the summer/warm weather I am guessing they can be put in medium/large bark, with good air flow and watered very frequently. However when I've tried it (not in the summer) the roots have quickly died, whether I've watered frequently or tried watering when the bark is dry as I would with those established in bark (7-14 days depending on pot size and number of roots).

d. Phals in S/H do well in the summer, but roots show stress in the winter and again I've lost an orchid that way, and saved others with a heat mat.

Why do they die in case c & d. I don't know for sure, but I am starting to suspect it's temperature, combined with the roots tailored to need a more moist environment.

For phals bought in moss, for me keeping them in moss doesn't work for me either, I've tried that as well, and I've tried transferring them to S/H, but see case d.

Those I buy in bark I have no problems with. I've bought around 30 in bark over the years and 25 are still with me, and all of them did well for at least a year. I've bought around 10 phals in moss, and only been able to save 2. The last two I ever got bought in moss.

For me Leca, but not S/H, is the solution for these ones bought in moss. When dry it is warmer than bark or moss, when wet it can get colder due to evaporation. This colder due to evaporation is the reason S/H doesn't work in my climate for phals (I use it for other cooler growing types, just as I use moss for other cooler growing types). However growing in it as a straight medium it dries pretty quickly and it has lots of air flow.

Now... I've not thought about it until today, but is the fact that Leca tends to be warmer than bark or moss when it's dry a big factor in this. My phals in it are probably watered every 3 days, and will usually be dry for a day at least. Is the temperature a factor?

As I said at the top of this long post, I don't know the answers, only what I've observed. James we are in very different climates, Phals as warm loving orchids probably have an easier life in your climate, I'm probably growing them at the lower end of their 'happy' temperature zone. I wonder, just wonder if that is the reason for our different experiences of this
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2013, 10:29 AM
LadySoren LadySoren is offline
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in my specific case, it's a problem that the top (where most of the roots are for now) gets bone dry while the bottom stays wet for much longer. I mist the parts of the roots I can see everyday so that they don't go bone dry while I wait for the bottom with no roots to dry. Has been said in another post that I probably have to fill the bottom with packing peanuts or something. That's just in my case with one particular unhappy phal at the moment. It's leaves are all floppy and it's looking like it's new leave has just paused its growing. Not sure why. I think you're on to something with the temperature. My downstairs where I keep them is cooler than upstairs where we sleep, so I now plan to move them upstairs probably today.

Thanks guys! This is all good info and I know that some plants just struggle for different reasons. This gives us a few different angles to look at for each plant.
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2013, 11:49 AM
phraggy phraggy is offline
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Whenever you repot you should refrain from feeding for at least 6 weeks. This enables the roots to settle in without the added burden of dealing with fertiliser.
Ed
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2013, 12:29 PM
LadySoren LadySoren is offline
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Does that include refraining from KLN? Or that's not considered a fert, just rooting hormone?
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2013, 12:40 PM
kindrag23 kindrag23 is offline
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I use just a small amount of seaweed ext. to help hopefully get the roots going. But I have heard that fertilizer can actually stun the growth of chids who have just been repotted....
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  #18  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:55 PM
WhiteRabbit WhiteRabbit is offline
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For whatever it may be worth, I fertilize as usual ...
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:31 PM
Island Girl Island Girl is offline
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I've been wracking my brain for an answer to this as well, and couldn't figure out what the difference was... Rosie, I think you've made a very good point... I grow mostly Phals species & primary hybrids, as well as other hybrids, in both bark & straight moss. I've noticed that (esp. the ones in moss) they seem to slow down when the weather gets to the temps you're talking about...

In fact, at those temps, I'd consider it (for most) their "rest" temps.. at 65° F (although, a couple of species I have, need these temps, and it isn't until below/around 50° that they should come in... I don't recommend those temps for Phals tho, as these are the less common species). In fact, I've brought the majority of mine inside, because we are having nighttime temps go down into the mid-low 60°'s. So, I definitely agree that keeping them warm, is good... That is, if there's anything (within reason) you can do about it. But, obviously, even if you can't keep them warm, it's just a matter of finding what works. I've seen your Phals Rosie, and they are beautiful, so I know that what you do works!

I also fertilize as usual, for what it's worth.
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  #20  
Old 09-28-2013, 04:26 AM
RosieC RosieC is offline
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I'm more and more convinced that temperature is the key. I can grow phals in my temps, but trying to switch their medium is a struggle, and I have to use medium that will not cool them down even further.

A heat mat does help for a struggling one or two, but much as I love my orchids I'm not willing to spend more on heating the whole house. I feel comfortable at 67 so that's what they get when I'm awake and in the house, and a bit cooler when I'm asleep or out. We're actually having a bit of an "Indian Summer" just now and the house is naturally staying about 68 all the time... but I'm sure that will change soon
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