Which might be more warmth tolerant?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by estación seca

I was thinking hybrids because hybrids are usually easier to grow than species.

In my experience, this is not necessarily true in all cases. And neither have I come across any hard evidence/data that supports such a claim - yet.

I sometimes wonder when and where this claim originated from, and what criteria were being taken into consideration in order for this statement to be perceived as factual during its inception.

While the intention of having to make a hybrid is to hopefully breed a plant that is more tolerant of a wider range of temperature or humidity requirements, it doesn't always come out this way.

For me...

A strong plant is a strong plant.

And a plant is hardy if you are able to provide the environment in which it thrives.

A plant is as easy to grow as how well you are able to provide for the type of care it needs in accordance with its growth habits.

These apply to both species or hybrids.

If you cannot meet the plant's needs, it doesn't matter if they're hybrids or species, the plant will react negatively in varying degrees depending on the situation.

But if you want recommendations for hybrids out of the choices you mentioned, I already gave you my opinion.

If you'd like a recommendation outside of your choices, then you'd have to pick one with Masd reginae, Masd princeps, Masd ayabacana, Masd wendlandiana, or Masd nicaraguae in the hybrid's parentage. These are just examples. You are not limited to hybrids with the aforementioned species as parents. All you have to do is find the species that grows the warmest out of the bunch, and look for hybrids with those species as part of its pedigree.

[estación seca]

Hybrid vigor is well-recognized in almost all plants and animals. Many or most primary hybrids grow faster than either parent. There are a few weak hybrids; this is more common between distantly-related species. Varying explanations have been proposed. There could be introduction of beneficial characteristics from both parents. Hybridizing may allow expression of characteristics present but silent in both parents. One parent may provide genetics replacing damaged sequences in the other parent. There are many other possibilities.

Hybrid vigor in Masdevallia seemed likely to me when perusing Masdevallia threads here. Most of the beautiful specimens I saw rebloomed by non-Masdevallia specialists are hybrids rather than species.

This is why many advise orchid beginners to start with hybrids.

[Leafmite]

An interesting article that is one of many:

The myth of hybrid vigor in dogs...is a myth - The Institute of Canine Biology

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by estación seca

Hybrid vigor is well-recognized in almost all plants and animals. Many or most primary hybrids grow faster than either parent. There are a few weak hybrids; this is more common between distantly-related species. Varying explanations have been proposed. There could be introduction of beneficial characteristics from both parents. Hybridizing may allow expression of characteristics present but silent in both parents. One parent may provide genetics replacing damaged sequences in the other parent. There are many other possibilities.

Expressions of different desirable genetic traits, yeah, I get that. That's easy to see.

Hybrid vigor - I'm not on the boat with that. In some cases, yes. In other cases, a definite, no!

Hybrid vigor in Masdevallia seemed likely to me when perusing Masdevallia threads here. Most of the beautiful specimens I saw rebloomed by non-Masdevallia specialists are hybrids rather than species.

This is why many advise orchid beginners to start with hybrids.

Like I said prior, if you've got what it takes to grow a Masdevallia, you'll re-bloom these suckers like nobody's business. They are not really that difficult to bloom. The key is to keep them alive. Come time for them to bloom, they automatically will do it for you just as long as the growing conditions meets their needs to survive. It doesn't take a Masdevallia specialist to do this.

For example, I've re-bloomed Masd campyloglossa quite a few times. I've re-bloomed Masd vietchiana a few times without trying. I've bloomed Masd coccinea without any effort. They've just made it to blooming season and they had been grown bright enough for them to produce enough energy, and poof! They bloom!

I've even bloomed hybrid Masdevallias without trying.

There's not much of a difference, species or hybrid... You've just gotta figure out how to grow them right.

[u bada]

I'm in LA, where abouts are you, Philip? I'm in Hollywood, and I'm not about to bother with many masdies here in the hills where I am... I did really well with them in santa monica however... lol...

Estacion, I can't offer all that much except that infracta had done well for me in 90's for years when I was in east coast and grew it... and... wendlandiana is a masdie I currently grow and it and floribunda (tuerckheimii vars) don't bat an eye in extended weeks in upper 80's day temps and mid to high 70's night temps... and copper angel which Ray recommended I've heard does very well with adverse (beyond typical masdie preferences)

As for hybrids vs species... I have found hybrids CAN be on the most part easier growers, and certainly those with long generational lines... various catt hybrids and neo/vanda hybrids and certainly phals for instance are little tanks you can't stop them it seems... but some obscure primaries don't do nuthin... and some species are tanks, but for me I'd say depends on what it is and where it comes from of course... if they are from a very particular microclimate that's not anything like mine forget it...

that said, species can surprise you... epi. capricornu is from highish altitude ecuador and peru and it handles 100 degree days and 80 degree nights for at least a couple weeks without any problems...

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I'm a little further inland from you. I am in Rosemead, in the San Gabriel Valley. Santa Monica is definitely conducive to growing all sorts of Masdevallias without a whole lot of problems. Here, it takes a special cooled location to grow them past summer. I haven't figured out what will work for our summers. But our springs, falls, and winters are not an issue for many Masdevllias.

The article that Leafmite posted is actually far more accurate.

It is not necessarily about hybrid vigor as it is more about inbreeding. If the species has a very tiny gene pool, that's where the problems come, (which is usually the case in our hobby). If the species is being propagated with a large gene pool, the occurrence of low vigor in a species diminishes greatly.

Not a lot of people are interested in breeding certain species orchids with a large enough gene pool to negate any issues of loss of vigor.

Our hobby can be guilty of perpetuating the problem of loss of vigor in a species when all we're dealing with are brood stock that are only descended from 3 genetic lines for some species of orchids, for example. This is why the occasional introduction of genetic lines from the wild is important to sustain this hobby. Especially if our hobby is to sustain growing species orchids for the future.

But for those species orchids that do not have the problem of inbreeding. There is no problem of loss of vigor.

Hence there are times when there is no difference between species or hybrids in terms of vigor in some cases, and there seems to be a difference in others. And it doesn't always turn out that hybrids are always stronger than their species counterparts. Sometimes you can get a hybrid with poor vigor as well. It is about genetics.

[estación seca]

Originally Posted by Leafmite

An interesting article that is one of many:

The myth of hybrid vigor in dogs...is a myth - The Institute of Canine Biology

This article isn't about hybrid vigor, despite the title. Breeding between different breeds of dogs is not hybridizing. They're all Canis familiaris. The article centers on reversal of damage caused by inbreeding, via crossing with other lineages.

Breeding between different species of Canis would be hybridizing.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I forgot to mention that part of the breeding process is selection.

If you just talk about hybridizing without selection, hybrid vigor is up in the air, because of the probabilities that occur from the principles of the Punnet Squares.

If you hybridize, and then you select the strongest most vigorous offspring, this is where hybrid vigor can appear to be more prominent.

But this can be said for species as well. If you're breeding species orchids from a large enough gene pool and you are selecting for vigor, that species will not have issues of vigor.

[u bada]

Wow Rosemead is pretty far inland in my opinion, how do you keep things cool out there in summer? perhaps I can assume you have a gh with a swamp cooler? and I would imagine you get below 40 for quite a few days in winter?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Some of the orchids that have persisted for many years in my collection are very temperature tolerant.

The cooler growers have no problems growing in our springs, falls, and winters.

Our winters can get quite cold. It is about 55 F tonight as I type this. I didn't pay attention to the temperature during the day today, but I believe it may have been 66 F, (according to the internet). I have seen frost on my yard before in past years, (so that would be about 36 F), but this does not happen often.

I don't have a swamp cooler nor a greenhouse. I have to figure out ways to grow them in a cooler environment during the summer. I haven't yet figured out how to do this with my current situation. Once I do, I can grow all the cool growers without a hitch, (except for the species that grow above 3,000 meters up in the Andes).

If I lived in San Bernardino County, forget it, I wouldn't be able to grow any of the cooler growers unless I lived up in the mountains.