Student Judge question: minis getting flower quality awards

[couchalot]

Hi, you were all so helpful with the Mokara talk, that I thought I would hit you all up again.

My new research topic is on the issue of why miniatures are so often relegated to getting a CHM or a CBR, even though many of them have flowers that are full flat and round.

Below are some of the things people have said to me, these are growers/hobbyists/judges/vendors etc.

"We give it a CBR if we would mow it over, and a CHM is something we would keep in our greenhouse."

"Shouldn't the standards of beauty be just that? Standards- meaning that a restrepia should not be compared to the size of a cattleya."

"Centers with equipment, dissecting microscopes, special camera lenses, etc, tend to be more likely to award these plants (minis.)"

"We are losing an entire market for the AOS, people become disenfranchised when their plants are only considered for two types of award."

"The AOS was designed to be about the cut flower market. That means big."

"I want the Wow factor to reach me from across the room, either as several large flowers, or many tiny flowers en masse. The former is flower quality material, the latter? CBR or CHM."

"Beauty not easily noted by the naked eye isn't beauty."

"At our sales table we see less of the devoted hobbyist, you know, the kind of person who wants the latest pleuro on the market- people who only bought one type."

"Miniatures represent an enormous market as people are downsizing, being able to grow minis successfully in terrariums, under lights means that they are becoming even more popular."

"They are really just weeds."

As you can see, I have written down all sorts of commentary. Now I would love to hear from all of you- as people who love these plants. I too, have gone over to the minis, having first fallen for restrepias, now I have several terrariums of all sorts of pleuros.

Personally I believe that the AOS is failing to evolve with the times. I am also concerned about the lack of consistency between judging centers across the US. As a dog/poultry/horse showing person, I know that lack of consistency is the quickest way to cause the public to lose interest, and that public, or fancy as we call it in the dog world, is who really controls the money. These are the people who join associations, come to orchid shows, enter plants in judgings, buy from vendors- you get the picture.

I would love some responses to the things I have been told, also would love your own ideas, along with a possibly solution- a data base of enough pictures of each type of mini- I know, crazy- but to really know if a flower is unique amongst its peers, one must have comparisons, and this does seem to be a real problem in the AOS.

Thank you in advance for your help. The talk is largely complete, but I want to hear your words first.

Happy Growing

[FairyInTheFlowers]

I just had a probationary judge talk at my Orchid Society, and he was talking about AOS judging. He stated that CBR's and CHR's are, in a sense, simply awards to get the plant in the database to have something to compare future entries with. So, in a way, I think any trend will soon begin to see flower awards, as long as people are bringing enough plants in to have some sort of large database to compare others to see if a plant is worth a flower quality award. Another thing that I think would help move any uncommon group towards flower awards is breeding with that group.

[Gage]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

I just had a probationary judge talk at my Orchid Society, and he was talking about AOS judging. He stated that CBR's and CHR's are, in a sense, simply awards to get the plant in the database to have something to compare future entries with. So, in a way, I think any trend will soon begin to see flower awards, as long as people are bringing enough plants in to have some sort of large database to compare others to see if a plant is worth a flower quality award. Another thing that I think would help move any uncommon group towards flower awards is breeding with that group.

Bingo. Well said.

[Bud]

I respect your opinion, you wrote a very depressing article on AOS with the guise of picking our minds....you must show two sides of the coin....why did you even become a student judge; what was your agenda?
Most successful AOS judges are rich old folks who have lots of time on their hands, must know how to draw or have a macro camera, write well with correct grammar and expletive/adjectives and can spend gasoline to go to the sites and waste money on unnecessary expenses.... very few folks are like that nowadays. This is not a career for the middle class. This is for the old rich and oppulent. If you are a nuveau riche or a corporate CEO; then you still have to toil and go to your office and judging orchids is not for you. Better research for an income generating career move. You will not be a millionaire as an AOS judge. In fact you will be poor and sell your hybrids and clones on Ebay.
As a starting student judge, you will really undergo a lot of trials and hardships and you are privy to the politics behind AOS; yet you can not do anything about it since you still do not have clout nor power. You have to spend at least six years of your life in AOS toil and drudgery to even have your voice heard.....and it will be a very very faint voice

[Mira-Claude]

I am a student judge and must disagree with you Bud.
Most AOS judges, and I have spoken to a lot of them are judges as an hobby. Some are doctors, nurses, engineers, butchers, home wives, retirees, teachers, orchid nurseries owners, .... In fact most judges I've spoken too were in the forties and fifties, still holding a job and taking quick weekend vacations to go judge here and there. Most were middle class people spending most of their money on their hobbies.
And to answer your question I am taking classes and studying hard to become an AOS judge because it is interesting, because I want t know why this plant got awarded and why not the other one? I want to know which one pulls the most colors out of it's kids because I want those kids! I want to know because of the science behind and because it makes me feel better to analyze things. To me it's relaxing. It's liberating.
And even if my voice will be faint it will be heard. It is my voice and I will push it how I will!
And to answer the question of couchalot, those awards are what makes way. Minis have been introduced in judging fairly recently (I have been told less than 2 decades), something about importing the orchids. Therefore, like Cody said, we have no way to judge them. How can you know how big the flower of a specie can get if there were no precedent? Or is the color brighter? Is it normal for the flower to be bowed that way?
Those awards simply allows us to know what the minimum should be and what to aim for. They are very useful and I wouldn't be surprise to see 'real' awards appear before I become a judge myself.

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by Bud

I respect your opinion, you wrote a very depressing article on AOS with the guise of picking our minds....you must show two sides of the coin....why did you even become a student judge; what was your agenda?
Most successful AOS judges are rich old folks who have lots of time on their hands, must know how to draw or have a macro camera, write well with correct grammar and expletive/adjectives and can spend gasoline to go to the sites and waste money on unnecessary expenses.... very few folks are like that nowadays. This is not a career for the middle class. This is for the old rich and oppulent. If you are a nuveau riche or a corporate CEO; then you still have to toil and go to your office and judging orchids is not for you. Better research for an income generating career move. You will not be a millionaire as an AOS judge. In fact you will be poor and sell your hybrids and clones on Ebay.
As a starting student judge, you will really undergo a lot of trials and hardships and you are privy to the politics behind AOS; yet you can not do anything about it since you still do not have clout nor power. You have to spend at least six years of your life in AOS toil and drudgery to even have your voice heard.....and it will be a very very faint voice

This has absolutely nothing to do with the post from couchalot!! He/She asked our opinions on AOS awards, especially those for miniatures and CBR and CHR. He/She did NOT ask for your opinion on whether or not someone should go into judging to get rich. how can you honestly say " In fact you will be poor and sell your hybrids and clones on Ebay." how do you know? you cant just say that! you dont know anything about them or their financial state! all of the judges ive ever known did not get into judging for money, they did it for love of orchids, and thats how it should be! im guessing becoming and AOS judge is not in your plans for the future, but that doesnt mean you have to be condescending and discouraging to people! especially a new member!

to answer your questions and to stay on topic, Couchalot, the AOS description of the CBR and CHR awards sheds some light on the subject for me. (since your astudent judge already, you probably know this though, but ill post it for other people who are interested.)

here is what i copied from the AOS website

CBR (Certificate of Botanical Recognition)
Awarded to rare and unusual species with educational interest that has received no previous awards. The entire plant must be exhibited. This award is granted provisionally and filed with the judging center Chair pending taxonomic verification supplied by the exhibitor. (see Taxonomic Authorities)

CHM (Certificate of Horticultural Merit)
Awarded to a well-grown and well-flowered species or natural hybrid with characteristics that contribute to the horticultural aspects of orchidology, such as aesthetic appeal. This award is granted provisionally and filed with the judging center Chair pending taxonomic verification supplied by the exhibitor. (see Taxonomic Authorities)

to my knowledge, a CBR is awarded to species that are newly described species or that are new to cultivation. because they are new, they also have educational value. i think that CBRs and CHRs are commonly awarded to miniatures, also because alot of pleuros and other miniatures are new to cultivation with new species being described relatively often, compared to cattleyas for example.

"We give it a CBR if we would mow it over, and a CHM is something we would keep in our greenhouse."

i dont think that is the way it should be. i think a CBR should be for botanical rarity or newness worthy of recognition, NOT because of "wow" factor. its also a way to get a photo and description in the data base for future reference.

i havent been around enough to experience that minis rarely get flower quality awards, but i can point out that cattleyas rarely get CBRs and CHRs.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by Bud

I respect your opinion, you wrote a very depressing article on AOS with the guise of picking our minds....you must show two sides of the coin....why did you even become a student judge; what was your agenda?

Wow. . . just wow. Not only is your comment completely unrelated and derrogatory, but everything you said is practically untrue in every aspect! You are coming in and automatically assuming and accusing that he is in training for future selfish motives, which I would find completely insulting!

Originally Posted by Bud

This is not a career for the middle class. This is for the old rich and oppulent. If you are a nuveau riche or a corporate CEO; then you still have to toil and go to your office and judging orchids is not for you. Better research for an income generating career move. You will not be a millionaire as an AOS judge. In fact you will be poor and sell your hybrids and clones on Ebay.

I'm going to start with this. Who ever said judging was a career to make money? Every single soul going into judging knows that it will require a lot of self sacrifice and hard studying, yet there are dozens upon dozens that enter every year! Why? Because they love orchids and wish to know more about them, and becoming a judge is one of the best ways to do that. There is no striving for money or attempts at fame. I can almost guarantee anyone that is in it for the wrong motives will quickly fail and be removed.

Originally Posted by Bud

Most successful AOS judges are rich old folks who have lots of time on their hands, must know how to draw or have a macro camera, write well with correct grammar and expletive/adjectives and can spend gasoline to go to the sites and waste money on unnecessary expenses.... very few folks are like that nowadays.

Wow, what a ridiculous statement. As Mira has stated, there are judges of many different ages from all walks of life and social class. If there was a judging center near me, I can guarantee you that I would be there in training to be a judge the moment I could. Why? Because I love orchids with a passion and I want to learn as much as I possibly can! And for those skills listed, you can bet your firstborn that they will need to be skilled in order to succeed! How preposterous to even think that a person would be able to become a judge without the current ability or the ability to learn how to write well! They will eventually have in their hands the ability to award a plant with a universally recognized and practically permanent award! You would not see a brain surgeon who is half illiterate, would you. Also, like I've said before, these people are passionate about orchids, who are you to judge that them driving around is a waste of money? People who golf for a hobby fly all over the world and pay huge membership fees to do what they love, and that isn't a waste to them, now is it?

Originally Posted by Bud

As a starting student judge, you will really undergo a lot of trials and hardships and you are privy to the politics behind AOS; yet you can not do anything about it since you still do not have clout nor power. You have to spend at least six years of your life in AOS toil and drudgery to even have your voice heard.....and it will be a very very faint voice

Now I know that learning to judge might not be all sunshine and rainbows, but I am sure this guy knows that by now. And who would care about having clout or power in the AOS system, other than someone with selfish motives? It's obvious that you have something against the AOS, and you can keep your own grudges for all I care, but don't come in and rain on other people's lives.

[Andrew]

Just my 2 cents, I get a little skeptical when I see many of the quality awards assigned to species of botanical interest and often wonder to what extent they really represent a cultivar that is an improvement over the general species vs a plant that is just being grown really well. I often wonder whether judges are sufficiently versed in the variation within some of the species they’re judging to make a good call of quality, particularly in cases where there is not a good representation of the variation within the species in cultivation. I’ve seen a couple of Australian species awarded HCC’s under the AOS as well as the Australian systems that are at best examples of good forms of the species, although not necessarily outstanding examples of that form, or stock standard examples of the species that have been flowered well. Give them a CBM/CBR or an ACC/CCE but are they really high quality flowers? If, as TheBlazingAugust said, these species were being bred to actively improve the flower I’d probably be less cynical about awarding for quality. FWIW, I'm speaking as someone who grows plants you'd mow over rather than keep in your greenhouse.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Bud

I respect your opinion, you wrote a very depressing article on AOS with the guise of picking our minds....you must show two sides of the coin....why did you even become a student judge; what was your agenda?
Most successful AOS judges are rich old folks who have lots of time on their hands, must know how to draw or have a macro camera, write well with correct grammar and expletive/adjectives and can spend gasoline to go to the sites and waste money on unnecessary expenses.... very few folks are like that nowadays. This is not a career for the middle class. This is for the old rich and oppulent. If you are a nuveau riche or a corporate CEO; then you still have to toil and go to your office and judging orchids is not for you. Better research for an income generating career move. You will not be a millionaire as an AOS judge. In fact you will be poor and sell your hybrids and clones on Ebay.
As a starting student judge, you will really undergo a lot of trials and hardships and you are privy to the politics behind AOS; yet you can not do anything about it since you still do not have clout nor power. You have to spend at least six years of your life in AOS toil and drudgery to even have your voice heard.....and it will be a very very faint voice

Bud, I think you may have some misinformation about judging. I too am a new student judge and am learning so much more about orchids. I have experienced many judges from all walks of life who have one thing in common...their love of orchids. My time learning is all volunteer as is everyone traveling to judge at AOS shows. This is not a career to make money. We don't get paid. Key word here is "Volunteer". I myself wanted to know more about this wonderful gift from nature. Learning about orchids, where they come from, where new hybrids are going is fascinating. Awards are given to acknowledge quality, new botanical varieties, etc. The path to become an accredited judge is going to take me at least 6 years full of ups and downs with all that is required of me. But I look forward to becoming a more knowledgeable person when I reach my goal. I congratulate all the rest of our OB members stepping forward to continue learning and sharing their passion with others.

[Mira-Claude]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Just my 2 cents, I get a little skeptical when I see many of the quality awards assigned to species of botanical interest and often wonder to what extent they really represent a cultivar that is an improvement over the general species vs a plant that is just being grown really well. I often wonder whether judges are sufficiently versed in the variation within some of the species they’re judging to make a good call of quality, particularly in cases where there is not a good representation of the variation within the species in cultivation. I’ve seen a couple of Australian species awarded HCC’s under the AOS as well as the Australian systems that are at best examples of good forms of the species, although not necessarily outstanding examples of that form, or stock standard examples of the species that have been flowered well. Give them a CBM/CBR or an ACC/CCE but are they really high quality flowers? If, as TheBlazingAugust said, these species were being bred to actively improve the flower I’d probably be less cynical about awarding for quality. FWIW, I'm speaking as someone who grows plants you'd mow over rather than keep in your greenhouse.

The problem, often, is not the judges capacities to judge, but the criteria offered in the handbook. All orchids are currently judge by the same criteria in the AOS. Exceptions are made to species (reflex of the dorsal petal or bowing, the numbers of flowers, wether or not the are all facing the same way, ....) but very rarely made to hybrids.
Another problem has been pointed out to me by a lovely lady from seed engei and I will do my best to explain it here. She told me that in Japan, the orchid the most sought after is the neofinetia falcata. It is the orchid of the samurai, in japan there are orchid show solely centered around these magnificent orchids. It is important to know that neofinetia falacata is not a stable orchid. It mutates. It adds stripes or not, thicken it's leaves, or not, changes the color or shape of the blooms, the amount of blooms on the inflorescence, ... Therefore every year the crown a new King. The one they feel represents the best mutation in the specie. They even have a chart. There people won't hesitate to buy a King that sells for the price of a house.
But when you come back here and you present a neofinetia falcata for judging, the AOS is not as well versed in their knowledge and understanding of the specie. And therefore will judge it with it's own criteria. A neofinetia that win an award here might be laughed at in Japan.
I figure that the same might happen for other species, like Australian species. You have a way to put a value to them, we have another. Never will we say we know your indigenous orchids better than you. It would be preposterous. But when they show up for judging we have to judge them with our knowledge and appreciation. Which, I must admit might make no sense to you who have seen dozens of the same specimen and think the one we awarded was simply good enough and not a WOW factor.
Nobody ever said the system was perfect, after all it was made by humans, it is destined to be faulty. But the judges do their best. They do their best with the criteria given to them and the orchids they are presented with.