Student Judge question: minis getting flower quality awards

[Bud]

Its fine by me....I am not affected by personal attacks....I dont know anyone here, so it cant be personal with me. I am just surprised that some of you are very much affected by my opinions.
Its not always going to be pleasantries and elegant description of flowers I post that you like about me me....but sometimes you will also read opinions against AOS. RHS and KEW...that is inevitable because I do not like the way big corporations treat ordinary orchid growers....

But be careful with your attacks: you might get infactions and I dont want you guys to get introuble on account of AOS...its not worth the aggravation.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by Bud

Its fine by me....I am not affected by personal attacks....I dont know anyone here, so it cant be personal with me. I am just surprised that some of you are very much affected by my opinions.
Its not always going to be pleasantries and elegant description of flowers I post that you like about me me....but sometimes you will also read opinions against AOS. RHS and KEW...that is inevitable because I do not like the way big corporations treat ordinary orchid growers....

Once again, everyone is entitled to your opinions, but you MUST realize this: from what I have seen, most to all members of this board are in support of the AOS in some form or fasion. Your viewpoint is in an extreme minority. And we didn't get into this huge arguement with you just because we disagree with you, but because we all know for a fact that the way you see things is simply incorrect (in our view, and by the evidence, in reality). It has been said dozens of times by nearly a dozen different people that we feel the AOS is doing an awesome job at what it's doing, and we feel no abuse by the AOS. Once again, you are entitled to your opinion, but it goes against what everyone here (at least on this thread for sure) knows and believes.

Originally Posted by Bud

But be careful with your attacks: you might get infactions and I dont want you guys to get introuble on account of AOS...its not worth the aggravation.

Going off of what I just said, you need to realize that, yes, what you said struck a nerve in all of us, and it is for quite an obvious reason. So yeah, it's what you said that was taken as an attack. You can voice your opinion, but if you can't do it in a way which doesn't sound provoking (which, given the circumstances, is near impossible), I would refrain from doing so. Also, I highly doubt WE would be the ones getting infractions. If I remember correctly from what I heard, you are the one who's thread on boycotting the AOS got locked and deleted in a short span of time. This should go to show you that, like I've already said, your viewpoint is in a sharp contrast to the great majority here.

P.S. You seem to enjoy ignoring the facts that I have presented, which goes to show that you really don't care about the issue that your views could indeed be wrong.

[Bud]

I am glad to be a minority....after all there is a democracy of one.

But AOS is a corporation and we all know what corporations are: its all about money coming in.
That is what I am pointing out here....if other people wants to be a minion of a corporation for free, with the guise of volunteerism=then you got the right to be used and abused....but it is WRONG for a corporation to make money out of these people....

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Wow, your ignorance of the facts presented is absolutely astounding. The AOS is a volunteer organization, NO ONE makes money, NO ONE gains a personal profit, and ALL money earned is used to fund the organization, NOT the people. Your opinion is useless, as it's absolutely wrong, regardless of what you believe is the truth. The evidence is clearly against you, I really can't comprehend why you are still arguing.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by couchalot

But what is the answer?

I may not be the best person to ask about where to take miniature judging as, while I appreciate the need for judging to highlight exceptional plants of interest to growers, I also have a lot of reservations about the impact of judging on non-award worthy but no less important forms and will admit to having a hang up with the desire to "horticulturalise" species of limited show and breeding appeal.

With an increasing interest in miniature species and a shift away from classical breeding quality by commercial nurseries, judging guidelines probably do need to be adapted to allow judges to cope with current trends. However, to my mind, I'd also like some reassurance that species are being judged when judges can concede that they are ready to be judged. To use the example of Neofinetia that was mentioned, if the AOS has not seen enough Neo's that it can't judge one based upon its own standards it has more problems than Bud's accusations of corporate megalomania. This is not a case of not having Japan's gene pool but, rather, being familiar with sufficient breadth of form to make a call on what's good vs bad with some level of future proofing an awarded plant as a good plant.

However, lets pretend a Drymoanthus flavus is presented to "miniature friendly" AOS judges and is awarded a CBR (I'm using a NZ species simply as an example of something I'd assume you're unlikely to see in the states). If someone presents another flavus with a higher a flower count and bigger, better shaped flowers. Does it get an HCC as it's clearly an improvement on the CBR reference plant or do the judges say, "We've only seen two of these. Is the 2nd plant actually good or was the CBR plant bad" and err on the side of caution and not award for quality. Now I'm sure this is being done but I'm not necessarily convinced it's being done in all cases, nor is the problem isolated to the AOS.

[goodgollymissmolly]

Andrew I agree. My gut feel on the AOS system, which I think numbers will back up, is that AOS judges are inclined to grant CBR's rather routinely to get the plant in question identified and into the record system for future judging teams to use in identification efforts when evaluating an entry.

However, those same judges do not feel obligated to actually grant a quality award to a subsequent entry just because it might exceed some characteristic of the CBR plant. There are numerous Bulbophyllums ( for example) that have received CBR's and in spite of many subsequent submissions have never received a quality award. Frequently, they have received cultural awards (presumably justified).

My experience is that AOS judges are resistant to granting quality awards to plants (many of them small flowered) that demostrate a lack of horticultural value. They may be of scientific interest or even horticultural interest to those inclined to grow the rarely seen species, but unless they demostrate a characteristic that would appeal to a larger horticultural audience they most often do not get quality awards. I think that is the correct position and I think it agrees with your position as well.

There certainly are exceptions to anything, but I think the general thinking (and results) are as I described.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by Bud

AOS is a big bussines. Its a corporation.

You really should take a few minutes and learn a bit more about the AOS before spouting off, Bud. First of all...it is a NON-PROFIT Corporation...not a "big business". Yes, it is a corporation but the term/word "corporation" does not equate to deep pockets nor does it always mean big $$.

If you'd like to educate yourself on the realities of the AOS and all that is does for the hobby and the world of conservation...you can learn more here...
About the American Orchid Society

[WhiteRabbit]

No personal attacks! And always be respectful to others! Is that so difficult??? I am seriously disappointed by posts in this thread!

This thread will be watched - further personal attacks, lack of respect for others will result in infractions, and possibly thread being locked.

[RJSquirrel]

I have clerked for judges and been to judges meetings and just went thru the CBM vs CHM argument recently over a brassavola revoluta with 2 ugly flowers. It was given a CBR by vote over the CHM bec as it was put 'a plant with a CHM should be one that in the future everyone will want one and they fly off the shelves'. A CBR was given bec it wasnt a plant you see grown often in collections or grown at all. The flower looked no better than any of the other revoluta's given for comparison by OWiz so was not an option to give it anything else. Was run of the mill nothing special other than no one had ever seen or judged one.
I didnt see the flower as having much Botanical merit either myself.
So as to why do some flowers not get the respect they deserve or deserved lies within each AOS affiliate organization. Each seems to be area specific as to what they enjoy. Its just people and their preferences more than a conspiracy to keep a plant down by size or genus.
As one put it to me recently "My flowers in any other place but where I lives are award quality"