Poison Dart Frogs - Orchid Board

Goods14 · #1 01-07-2011, 12:25 PM

I've been planning to set up a terrarium for quite some time for some of my orchids and am now thinking this is a good opportunity to try to keep PDFs. I have experience keeping fire belly toads, saltwater reef systems, tropical birds, etc. and I have always been interested in these frogs. I know a few people on the forum keep these so I am looking for a few suggestions.

My terrarium will probably be made out of an Exoterra cage (either the medium or large size). Lights would be the standard hood that goes with these cages. I will probably just use a hand sprayer to manually mist the enclosure or modify the sprayer to create a manual misting system. I'm going to have to research the substrate and false floor further but I'll probably start with a layer of hydroton or eggcrate.

Which species do you guys recommend for beginners? I think I only want at most a pair.

Also, I'll be keeping these in an apartment while I'm at school. Will stress be a problem moving them between the apartment and my house for Christmas/ summer break?

I don't plan on getting any frogs until this summer at the earliest but I may get the terrarium and start planting in the near future. Thanks for any input!

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #2 01-07-2011, 02:13 PM

I don't recommend moving your dart frogs without special attention during your summers, which I understand can be sweltering hot (over 100 F with high humidity) where you are. The heat will kill your frogs instantly.

They don't like it above 85 F.

Dart frogs can be expensive. The larger species or hybrids are $50 and up depending on whether you acquire juveniles or not.

Dendrobates auratus or Dendrobates leucomelas are inexpensive, and they're good starters.

Dendrobates tinctorius and Dendrobates azureus are more expensive and are good starters.

Dendrobates galactonotus is lesser known but also a larger dart frog.

The thumbnails might not be a good choice for a first time keeper, but if you want one, Dendrobates ventrimaculatus is the best to start with.

Goods14 · #3 01-07-2011, 02:32 PM

From the preliminary research I've been doing, I see they can be expensive. To start off, I think I would get a common species/ morph to make sure I am capable of keeping them before I make a huge investment.

You're right. It does get hot here. When moving them, I would set up some type of temporary container. The only time during the move where they would experience any heat is going from the apartment/ house to the truck. I would keep them inside the truck for the ride. Do you think this would work? I could also put their travel container in a large styrofoam box for extra insulation.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #4 01-07-2011, 02:46 PM

Idk, never had to move them around so much.

Like I said, mind the heat. Try an experiment before you do it with the live animals.

Paul · #5 01-07-2011, 07:42 PM

Rob, aka "Little Frog", might be another good person to ask.

littlefrog · #6 01-07-2011, 09:56 PM

I've moved whole tanks several times (over 30 miles) and I don't think it was all that stressful to the frogs. It is better than cooking them. Take care to feed them well a day before you move, don't bounce them around any more than you have to, and keep the tanks out of the sun even when they are in the car. Avoid extremes of temperature, although if you move them in the vivarium there is a built in buffer against temperature swings (short of direct sun!), since there is a lot of thermal mass in one of those things. They are tree frogs, so they are evolved to handle movement of their habitat (tree branches are going to move). I'm rather surprised that they don't freak out in stationary vivariums...

If you have experience with toads you are probably experienced enough for tinctorius morphs. They are easy frogs in my opinion. My personal preference is larger darts. Thumbnails are great, but not my cup of tea. Plus right now they are really expensive. I'd go with as large a tank as you can find space for/afford. A minimum of 20G for 2 frogs. I know they say 5G per frog, that is just not enough in my opinion.

So, just something to start with (in no particular order):

D. leucomelas ('bumble bee' frogs) - males can be pretty loud but they are a sturdy frog

D. azureus (or whatever they are calling it now) - A very common and pretty inexpensive frog. You could consider buying a proven pair.

D. tinctorius 'Cobalt' - awesome!
D. tinctorius 'Inferalanis' (or 'Alanis') - huge and very sturdy in my experience
D. tinctorius in general. If they are selling at a reasonable price, don't be afraid of any tinc morph. They are all great frogs.

D. auratus - My first frogs and I still love them. Avoid the temptation to go with blues, they are often shy and a bit fussy. I like the good old fashioned Costa Rican Green and Black (the prettiest auratus in my opinion, I might be biased).

Purchasing frogs: There are a number of reputable breeders, I work closely with one but I won't single him out. Local is best. If you are patient, you'll find somebody in your city or close to it, and you can pick them up in person (a great idea). I'd strongly suggest hanging out on dendroboard.com for a while, read the FAQs and other documents, get comfortable. Frogs are cheaper through trades/purchases from other frogidiots. Reputation is everything, you might want to consider twice about buying frogs from somebody you've never heard of.

Tindomul · #7 01-07-2011, 10:41 PM

If your enclosure is wider than tall for sure get the big species. I think those are the easiest. My first were actually D. pumilo (O. pumilo) and did well for me for a long time because I had them in tall tanks. But eventually they died to inadequate nutrition (vitamins and such). Not because I didn't know but because I was delinquent with their care. I have not tried any other darts since, but I did study up on them and their care for about 3 years before I tired them (thanks to Dendroboard). I learned a lot.

Question, last time I checked (about 3 years ago) hybrids in dart frog world was a giant NO-NO! Are their hybrids available now?

Goods14 · #8 01-08-2011, 12:56 AM

Thanks for all the great information littlefrog and tindomul. I've been going on Dendroboard on and off for a year or two because I've been interested in these for years.

The species you suggested seem to be the consensus beginner frogs from all that I've read. My set up will most likely be in my room so I think I've ruled out the D. leucomelas because of their noise. I do like all of the others suggested and agree with you about the green and black auratus.

I currently have a 20g high aquarium that I was planning on converting to a vertical tank so my brother could keep a White's Tree Frog. That plan fell through. I was planning on buying a medium exoterra or possibly a large. Which would you guys recommend of the three?

I am currently trying to find someone local who breeds frogs but I won't be ready to buy until probably close to may. I am just trying to learn as much as possible and build my enclosure to allow it to grow out in order to be ready for frogs.

Also, are there any species or morphs within any of the species listed that are sensitive to temperatures in the mid 70s (max 80)?

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #9 01-08-2011, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tindomul

Question, last time I checked (about 3 years ago) hybrids in dart frog world was a giant NO-NO! Are their hybrids available now?

There have been tinc and azureus crosses for years.

As of the moment, I don't know of any other hybrids.

littlefrog · #10 01-08-2011, 04:38 PM

Hybrids are taboo, although it does sound weird to orchid growers.

I like the idea of a 20G high. If you go with the auratus, that is pretty good. Even though auratus are supposedly not big climbers, I always found mine using all available space.

I wouldn't worry about mid 70s. Higher than 80 long term (a brief journey into a bit warmer won't hurt), or lower than mid 60's would be trouble.

Another choice for a 'flat' tank would be terribilis. They were common as dirt when I started in frogs, and I didn't get any then (people were giving them away). I haven't noticed a lot of them being available lately, but it would be a good choice.