Results of ORSV and CymMV testing

[escualida]

I received my order of Agdia test strips today and proceeded to test almost all of my orchids - I left out some of the very small seedlings.

Well, out of 42 orchids five came back positive. One was a NoID mini Phal that I had bought at a grocery store that came back positive for CymMV, one is a very expensive Miltonia (ORSV) and the last three were phals that all came from the same vendor, one with ORSV and two with both ORSV and CymMV!

I was so disappointed. I immediately emailed both online vendors and will let you know what they say as soon as they get back to me.

Do you think I should test the small seedlings?

Edit: I've since revealed that the vendor in question is Norman's Orchids, aka orchids.com

[Stray59]

escualida :
If the seedlings were some you de-flasked, and you did not cross contaminate them once they were com-potted, it is my understanding that viruses are not transmitted into seeds. This is what I have read in research. Now if the seedlings were somehow exposed to the virus through direct contact with the infected plants, or something like water splashing or some other direct infection route, then they would need to be tested.
How much did you pay for the test strips? I have a lot of plants to test (well over 100) and cannot find the strips at a reasonable price.
Hope this eases your mind some!
Steve

[DavidCampen]

I have had the same result, out of about 40 plants that I have tested about 5 tested positive for either or both ORSV and CymMV via the Agdia Immunostrip.

I buy the Immunostrips directly from Agdia, $120 for 25 test strips that test for both ORSV and CymMV.
If you have more than 100 plants to test then the reagent cost can be reduced to less than $2 to test for both viruses by using Agdia's ELISA tests but the ELISA test procedure is much more involved.

[escualida]

I used the Agdia test strips, they're expensive but I'm glad I did it.

I didn't test the deflasked seedlings, they haven't been exposed and I know they're healthy, I was referring to some that I just got in the mail that are in 2 inch pots but they are really tiny, they barely take up 1/4 of each pot. One of them is so small I don't even know if it has enough leaf material to test.

I just got a response from one of the vendors, basically it was a huge cop out. Here it is if anyone is interested in reading it:

At [vendor] we make every attempt to provide our clients with vigorous healthy orchids to add to their collection. Our reputation and our pride in the products we offer are extremely important to us.

Recently there has been a lot of discussion among orchidists, in orchid publications and on the web about the potential for orchid viruses. As a result of much of the misunderstanding and misinformation out there, we would like to clarify some of this and apprise our clients of our policy regarding virus in orchids.

Orchids, as well as human beings, can carry many viruses, most of which are harmless and will never manifest themselves. Reputable orchid nurseries around the world will test a mother plant for known harmful virus infections before choosing to produce mericlones from them. The same practice holds true for pod and pollen parents before mating them. Once progeny are produced, virus spot-testing is done on the resulting run. However, testing each and every plant would be cost prohibitive, and we know of no nursery anywhere that tests every one of their plants day in and day out for potential virus infections.

With the advent of an inexpensive home test kit for orchid viruses, some orchidists have been testing their plants under less than desirable conditions with the resulting enormous potential for false readings. These tests are not being conducted in a tightly controlled environment like a laboratory, very often without following the instructions explicitly. Add to this the fact that the test strips themselves are not 100% accurate. All too often a false reading can take place if there is residual fungicide, bacteriacide or pesticide on the plants. There is simply too much room for error in these home test kits, causing many to throw away perfectly healthy virus-free plants as a result of an easily avoided false reading.

At [vendor], we select only the healthiest most vigorous plants for our clients. As is the practice at any orchid nursery before shipping, we will groom the plant if necessary, removing any senescent foliage, trimming a broken leaf or pruning the plant for an attractive presentation.

If a client suspects that a plant purchased from us is virused, our policy is that we will only honor test results on that plant if the test has been done at a reputable laboratory and for which we have been provided a copy of the results. If the plant is then returned to us at their expense, we will be more than happy to issue them a full refund for the purchase price of the plant. This refund policy will apply only to plants within 30 days of their purchase.

If you would like still like to return the plants please do so but let us know.

Customer Support

I wrote them back saying that I want them to replace the plants and that it all sounds like a big excuse to me. That it is no coincidence that MOST of the ones that came out positive just HAPPENED to come from them.

Most of my plants come from Carter and Holmes and NONE of them tested positive, they are all completely clear. So obviously it is possible for a large vendor to sell disease free plants.

Depending on how they handle this I will be letting you all know who this vendor is and if they are worth buying from.

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by escualida

...
I just got a response from one of the vendors, basically it was a huge cop out. Here it is if anyone is interested in reading it:

Yes this is not just a cop out but also insulting. My comments:

At [vendor] we make every attempt to provide our clients with vigorous healthy orchids to add to their collection. Our reputation and our pride in the products we offer are extremely important to us.
The rest of the reply contradicts this.


Recently there has been a lot of discussion among orchidists, in orchid publications and on the web about the potential for orchid viruses. As a result of much of the misunderstanding and misinformation out there, we would like to clarify some of this and apprise our clients of our policy regarding virus in orchids.
What is the relevance of this comment, other than to express annoyance.


Orchids, as well as human beings, can carry many viruses, most of which are harmless and will never manifest themselves.
This is an attempt at misdirection. ORSV and CymMV are definitely harmful.

Reputable orchid nurseries around the world will test a mother plant for known harmful virus infections before choosing to produce mericlones from them. The same practice holds true for pod and pollen parents before mating them. Once progeny are produced, virus spot-testing is done on the resulting run.
It seems that this vendor is not doing that. If the mother plants were tested and the progeny spot tested they should have been able to produce ORSV and CymMV free plants

However, testing each and every plant would be cost prohibitive, and we know of no nursery anywhere that tests every one of their plants day in and day out for potential virus infections.
It is not necessary to do this to produce ORSV and CymMV free plants.

With the advent of an inexpensive home test kit for orchid viruses, some orchidists have been testing their plants under less than desirable conditions with the resulting enormous potential for false readings. These tests are not being conducted in a tightly controlled environment like a laboratory, very often without following the instructions explicitly.
Insulting!

Add to this the fact that the test strips themselves are not 100% accurate. All too often a false reading can take place if there is residual fungicide, bacteriacide or pesticide on the plants. There is simply too much room for error in these home test kits, causing many to throw away perfectly healthy virus-free plants as a result of an easily avoided false reading.
BS.


At [vendor], we select only the healthiest most vigorous plants for our clients. As is the practice at any orchid nursery before shipping, we will groom the plant if necessary, removing any senescent foliage, trimming a broken leaf or pruning the plant for an attractive presentation.

If a client suspects that a plant purchased from us is virused, our policy is that we will only honor test results on that plant if the test has been done at a reputable laboratory and for which we have been provided a copy of the results. If the plant is then returned to us at their expense, we will be more than happy to issue them a full refund for the purchase price of the plant. This refund policy will apply only to plants within 30 days of their purchase.
They won't even refund shipping or the cost of having the test repeated in a laboratory! Not a nice place to do business with.

If you would like still like to return the plants please do so but let us know.
Wow.

[NYCorchidman]

I understand where you're coming from as a customer. I also understand what the vendor is saying.
David, I think you're being a bit too hard on the vendor. It is very true that there are many many different viruses affecting orchids. (At least 30). As you point out and as many orchid lovers know, two of the most harmful ones are also the most common. They didn't mention all viruses are harmless.

At nurseries growing hundreds to thousand orchids, it is just very impractical to test every single plant they have for the presence of viruese. It is simply not done!
There are also false positive or false negative test results, and possible contamination at home test set up is very likely.

Also, viruses are much more common than many think. Any growers will have somewhere from 5-30% of their orchid stock virused with the two deadly ones or both in many cases. It's just reality.

In your case though, Adriana, since all plants from the same vendor came out positive, it's probably true reading.
If you paid a lot of money for the plants, why don't you send samples of those plants to a lab like critter creek lab and have them test your samples?
Then not only you know for sure about your plants's disease status, but also can use their results to get your money back or replacement plants.

By the way, is any of your orchids oncidium hybrids?
I hate how oncidiums show signs that might be fungal, viral or nothing. I thought a lot about testing, but since most of them are cheap and common, I just dump them if I don't like them. lol

Now I'm thinking of sending samples of all my orchids to a lab. I just can't live with doubt or suspicion everytime I see even the tiniest spots or streaks on leaves and flowers. just freaks me out! lol

All the best with your orchids!

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

I understand where you're coming from as a customer. I also understand what the vendor is saying.
David, I think you're being a bit too hard on the vendor.

I don't think that I am being too hard on the vendor at all.

It is very true that there are many many different viruses affecting orchids. (At least 30). As you point out and as many orchid lovers know, two of the most harmful ones are also the most common. They didn't mention all viruses are harmless.

The only two viruses under discussion are harmful ones. To point out that there are many that are not harmful is irrelevant at best. I called it misdirection. OK, so I will ease up there and assume it was simply a rambling, irrelevant paragraph and not an attempt at misdirection.

At nurseries growing hundreds to thousand orchids, it is just very impractical to test every single plant they have for the presence of viruese. It is simply not done!

And it is absolutely not necessary to test every plant. If a grower can't figure out how to eliminate ORSV and CymMV from his stock then he needs to hire someone trained in plant pathology and statistical sampling.

There are also false positive or false negative test results, and possible contamination at home test set up is very likely.

False negatives are irrelevant to discussing "home" testing with respect to returning a plant to a vendor since if the plant tests negative it will not be returned.

possible contamination at home test set up is very likely.

I don't think that possible contamination is "very" likely. If I am performing the test it is extremely unlikely. But in the event that someone returns a plant that the vendor then tests and determines to be negative, the vendor can have a policy of not refunding shipping costs.

Also, viruses are much more common than many think. Any growers will have somewhere from 5-30% of their orchid stock virused with the two deadly ones or both in many cases. It's just reality.

I know this and many growers want to ignore this but I will not have any virused plants in my collection.

In your case though, Adriana, since all plants from the same vendor came out positive, it's probably true reading.
If you paid a lot of money for the plants, why don't you send samples of those plants to a lab like critter creek lab and have them test your samples?
Then not only you know for sure about your plants's disease status, but also can use their results to get your money back or replacement plants.

If she does this and Critter Creek confirms the results then she should post the name of the vendor.

Now I'm thinking of sending samples of all my orchids to a lab. I just can't live with doubt or suspicion everytime I see even the tiniest spots or streaks on leaves and flowers. just freaks me out! lol

All the best with your orchids!

Critter Creek is not very expensive.

[escualida]

Thanks guys, well they emailed me back and are getting UPS to pick up the plants next week and say they'll give me a refund so that's good.

At this point though I would rather just have them send me healthy replacement plants than refund my money, they were really pretty and I was really looking forward to having them flower. I haven't seen ones that I like as much as these. Figures that the ones I like the most are the ones that turn out to be sick. I told them as much so we'll see if they're willing to send out healthy replacements.

NYCorchidman, none of the plants were oncidiums, they are all phals.

[Stray59]

esculida:
You and I both know that there are some beautiful orchids out there, but if I had received multiple orc's that were testing positive for these viruses, I would not want a replacement from the same greenhouse, there is not a flower worth it (Well, maybe BLC 'Irene Finney' - no not even that!).
I agree that no commercial grower can be responsible for the viral condition of all of his plants. Any worker or customer who smokes could well infect individual plants with Mosaic virus, easy enough; but for you to have received multiple plants from this place means they are running a pretty high viral infection rate, unless you ordered hundreds at a time; then you might expect this type of percentage. Plus I take it they were not all the same hybrid, perhaps not even the same species. This would indicate cross contamination into all the varieties. It sounds like a pretty "hot" greenhouse, referring to the amount of virus they have.
I think you should take your money and runnnn! Apply that money to Hausermann's stock or back to Carter and Holmes. I have never heard of virus coming from either of these well established houses, and I have known of them for 25+ years.
To me, if you have bought multiple orchids from this place, I would ship every one back and have THEM test them. It is their responsibility to be a front guard against spreading such disease and at the first sign of it, they should have started testing in smaller clusters.
Instead, they wrote you an insulting letter and questioned everything EXCEPT the real possibility that the infection was present when sold and their responsibility. I would definitely take them off speed dial, and forget their number altogether.
Be careful what you post though. A thread was started by someone else who blasted a company on the board. In this day and age, be wary of posting anything derogatory or which you might be sued for.

Steve

[DavidCampen]

I got another 50 Agdia Immunostrips today and so far have tested 10 more plants, 1 is positive for CymMV.

The virused plants that I have gotten have come from a number of fairly to highly reputable breeders and growers. When I buy more plants I think I will ask the vendors if I can send them some test strips so that they can check the plants before they send them to me.

I think that it is come as a shock to the breeders/growers to realize how many virused plants that they have.