Phal looks dehydrated, does not thrive

[Paschendale]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

You might want to try the enclosed container method, but it will be a long way to go.

I would start with a new healthy plant unless this plant is highly valuable.

Is the enclosed container method like a pot, or something different? I have not heard of that term.

It is not highly valuable at all, having most likely come from a big box store. It was a gift, so I like it for that reason, plus I don't mind taking the time to try to learn how to correct this problem for future reference. Assuming the problem correction is something financially within my grasp. Sadly, I can't afford anything like a greenhouse at this time, much as I'd like one.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

Originally Posted by AnonYMouse

Stop fiddling with it! You haven't given it a chance to settle into your environment.

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Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

It sounds like you have moved the plant from pot to vase culture to a mount in quick succession. The frequent changes are potentially very stressful for a plant.

Sorry, it did give that impression, but all this happened over a period of about 4, maybe even 5 months. It stayed in each situation a couple of months each time - the mount is only as of this past weekend. But it had to come out of the initial pot - the small number of roots are the result of my having had to trim many of them off, because they were rotting in the original growing media. The few that are left now were the only ones that were green and not mushy.



Would it help to remove it from the mount and let it grow in water for a couple of weeks to rehyrate, possibly? It did seem to like that when it first came out of the original pot, prior to the first repotting. I have a suitable window where it can grow for a bit.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

Originally Posted by james mickelso

But cutting off the little reserve of water it has would make matters worse. The plant will close it's stoma and conserve what water it can short of it's metabolic needs. Yes the leaves will wrinkle but I have kept many rootless orchids alive by misting or spraying the undersides of the leaves until new roots could grow. I feel that leaving it mounted for now, since it has no roots to absorb water, and drenching it mount and all daily will bring this back.

If it's better to leave on the mount, to drench it, can it be soaked up to and including the leaves or do just the roots themselves need to be thoroughly soaked?

Also, I have read a lot about only watering in the morning, which I have been doing. But can misting be done any time throughout the day, as long as it not done going into the evening? Incidentally, why is that? I would think that rain in the native environment would have as much chance of arriving at night as during the day? I have been curious about that for some time but cannot find a satisfactory answer?

[Brooke]

In nature they do get rained on at night and even growing on a tree, they can develop problems. Make sure the crown and the area where the leaves attach to the stem are dry on cooler nights.

Yes you can soak the entire plant submerged in water. I rerooted a Phal devoid of roots by putting it in fertilizer water 3/4 times a week. I would soak it for 30-60 minutes, put it in a shallow container on damp sphag in a warm place out of direct sunlight. It took a while but eventually new roots appeared and it was put in a pot.

Brooke

[NYCorchidman]

I agree with what Brooke suggests.

Slightly wilted leafy veggies perk up when soaked in water for a while. Same concept I would think.

The enclosed container is just what I called it. I think people here call it sphag and bag, although you don't have to have sphag. also, you can even have the plant potted in bark. Keeping the plant in enclosed container is mainly to maintain high humidity.

I have revived some mini phals with dried leaves like yours using half dome shaped glassware.
My plants were potted in a small pot with seedling sized bark. I watered it good once through, drain well, then had the glassware over the plant. Keeping the sick plant warm is also helpful as warm temperature encourages phals to start growing roots and leaves.
I misted roots (few left) often rather than watering.
Mine usually took about two months to show any sign of activity.



James, trimming leaves off does no harm as far as watering loss is concerned, but actually as I have pointed out, it only helps to balance out the water loss/uptake for plants with little roots to uptake water.

The fact that the leaves are getting wrinkled means the plant is losing water. The more leaves, the more surface area to lose water from. They do not keep their stomata shut all the time in trying to save water. With little roots to uptake enough water to support the biochemical activity within the plant to stay alive, the plant over time only loses more and more water via leaves.

Plants with good roots that have been underwatered is a different story.

[james mickelso]

The stoma will stay closed as long as there is no water. With no roots to take in water the moisture in the leaves will be used by the plants metabolic processes. Cutting off any tissue robs the plant of what little moisture it has left. Keeping the plant in an atmosphere with high humidity (the Tupperware or sphag and bag) will lessen any moisture loss through the tissue. My suggestion is to leave it alone other than laying it on some moss, spraying it or drenching it and keeping it warm.

[NYCorchidman]

That is only partially true, James.
Water is only one factor that concerns the opening and closing of stomata.

Plus, with your logic, cutting off tissue also means that much of plant part involved in metabolic activity is lost. so water loss balances out that way.

Also, in high humidity condition, the stomata may stay open and lose water too much that way according to your logic, but what you are saying goes against your own.

[james mickelso]

In a high humidity condition if the stoma open the moisture loss would then be negligeable. I offer that putting it in water will not make the leaves plump back up. Spraying the plant will help limit moisture loss but not rehydrate the leaves. It only helps moderate moisture loss. Please get an orchid (one from HD or Lowes, ect) and desiccate it. Let it dry to any point you wish and then try to rehydrate it. I've rescued many, many orchids which were seemingly beyong help and put them to bed in sphagnum moss, drenched them and put them back on top the damp moss, and they survived nicely but never rehydrated the leaves. There was enough moisture in the tissues of the leaves that the plant eventually grew new leaves and even flowered , although poorly. I will endeavor to do this with a phal from HD, photograph it during it's ordeal, and show what happens.

[blackvine]

I LOVE this! Amongst all the differing, but educated - and CORRECT, opinions, there is the answer. I actually agree with all, but tend more toward not doing ANYTHING to it right now except insuring it is watered correctly. It has gone through too many changes and is stressed. No fert. No cutting. No repotting. Just let it be for at least 2 months. Honestly, though, before anyone thinks I'm smug - uh . . . no. I've put some of my 'chids through WAY too many changes - from mount to pot to different potting medium to still different potting medium - in a span of 4 months. Did it because I freaked that the last change wasn't good enough. Human nature. But, while some of those guys were good-natured about it, some are still stressed. I really think the right thing is to LEAVE ALONE between potting/lighting/temperature/water decisions!

[NYCorchidman]

James- No one mentioned rehydrating something that is nearly dead, but "slightly wilted" is what was used, and those WILL plump back up.

I have done it many times. leaves of phals, pbs of oncidiums and even cattleyas, canes of dendrobiums...list goes on.

And again, water ( including humidity in the air) is only one factor affecting the complex mechanism of stomata.

[Paschendale]

Originally Posted by blackvine

Did it because I freaked that the last change wasn't good enough.

That's kind of my reasoning for the multiple changes. I just want to find a situation that the plant likes.


I have one other rather unrelated question that occurred to me the other day: if you have simply a piece of green root and no plant (this was achieved due to a cat, in case anybody wondered), can this be put in water or otherwise potted or mounted and eventually produce a plant? Just curious.

[Orchid Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Paschendale

That's kind of my reasoning for the multiple changes. I just want to find a situation that the plant likes.


I have one other rather unrelated question that occurred to me the other day: if you have simply a piece of green root and no plant (this was achieved due to a cat, in case anybody wondered), can this be put in water or otherwise potted or mounted and eventually produce a plant? Just curious.

For the home grower, no.

I've heard that some mericlones can be produced from actively-growing root tips, but mericloning is a laboratory process, requiring specialized techniques.