Bees Bayer Systemic Pesticide

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by katrina

Problem is...I just don't believe it's that simple.

Nobody said it is. I have pointed out that Bayer ( you know, the manufacturer of the product you currently are defending ! ) itself reformulated its product in Europe to be more "bee-friendly". That fact is on its UK website. The EPA agrees with its European equivalent, and only disagrees on the risk management aspect because of regulatory requirements. Certain - soon to be all, I hope - HD suppliers are removing the chemical group from their insecticides.

Despite the aforegoing actions, certain individuals have issues in NOT buying the product until THEY are 100% satisified. Enough said !!!

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:20 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Brooke

and another is touting a new schedule of insecticides that are "considered" to be safe for bees. For me, considered and a fact are a world apart.

Brooke

I never "touted" that at all. I touted that EVEN the manufacturer of the product has made a change . If you followed the thread from the beginning you would know that I go "organic" whenever and wherever possible. You believe the manufacturer when it makes the original product - still for sale in the USA - but all of a sudden have a problem in believing them when they change the product ? Huh ?

[katrina]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

....you know, the manufacturer of the product you currently are defending ! )

Oh, so now I'm defending a company? Really?! Clearly you are going to read into things whatever you feel suits your agenda. The ONLY thing I was defending was caution against finger pointing while the jury is still out.

This is like banging my head against a wall. A big, dense, wall. Done.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by katrina

I seriously hope it shows a complete turn around in the colonies...it would be awesome to find out it's this group of pesticides because then we have an answer. Plus, if it's just the one group of products then it's much easier to remedy than some of the other discussed culprits (malnutrition, climate change, mites, virus, GMO crops, or other pathogens...or a combo of any or all) I would gladly give up imidacloprid (or any other insecticide) to save the bees. Problem is...I just don't believe it's that simple.

that is your full quote.
In reply this is what I said
"Nobody said it is. I have pointed out that Bayer ( you know, the manufacturer of the product you currently are defending ! ) itself reformulated its product in Europe to be more "bee-friendly". That fact is on its UK website. The EPA agrees with its European equivalent, and only disagrees on the risk management aspect because of regulatory requirements. Certain - soon to be all, I hope - HD suppliers are removing the chemical group from their insecticides.

Despite the aforegoing actions, certain individuals have issues in NOT buying the product until THEY are 100% satisified. Enough said !!!"

I think I have the same problem that NYCorchidman has with you. There is a serious disconnect between what you say and what you claim to mean. You are posting on a thread that is discussing the issues with "Bees Bayer Systemic Pesticide". If you are not going to stop buying the product because you don't believe "its that simple" - then you don't seem to comprehend the concept of INACTION vs ACTION !!!!

You also conveniently do not address what the EPA, the Europeans and the manufacturer of the product are doing and have done.

[Brooke]

"We have some classic examples of confirmation bias in this thread. The fact remains that Bayer itself has reformulated its garden products to exclude imidacloprid in at least the UK. Bayer states that the new "active ingredient is a completely different sub class to the three neonicotinoids in question and is considered to have a good profile for bees. "
If that isn't an admission by the manufacturer, then I don't know what is !!"


First of all I have followed the entire thread but thanks for the insult.

The quote from you above shows your inability to understand what a company will do when faced with the loss of one of their products. They change direction so they can continue to sell a product.

Before I bow out of this thread I will say again, the new family of insecticides that is "considered" to be more bee friendly, hasn't been determined yet.

When you answer this reply, be sure to use lots of bold type because that really convinces people to take your side.

Have a great day. I'm going to be in the greenhouse using my organic method of trying to make sure I can eliminate mealies from a couple of my Masdies because I don't enjoy having to spray over 1000 plants with an insecticide.

Brooke

Brooke

[katrina]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I think I have the same problem that NYCorchidman has with you. There is a serious disconnect between what you say and what you claim to mean.

You see it this way...because I'm not jumping on your bandwagon of thought. I'm not willing to blame the big bad chemical company because too much is still unknown regarding the subject...so, naturally, you're seeing a disconnect.

I've been very clear...more than one culprit...jury still out...too much unknown...many things still need to be figured...yada, yada, yada. There's no disconnect in anything I've typed other than it's not connecting w/what you want to believe. I'm sorry...I don't agree w/playing the blame game when even that power that be aren't sure.

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

You also conveniently do not address what the EPA, the Europeans and the manufacturer of the product are doing and have done.

As for what is going on in the EU...my comment was it'll be interesting to see what happens. I don't think I'm qualified to make any more of a statement than that. Unlike some people...I don't pretend to be smarter than the people tasked w/figuring out this very unfortunate problem.

As for why the EPA are doing it. I also don't try to pretend I know those reasons...and perhaps you shouldn't either. If you had any idea about the politics involved in some of what the EPA does...you likely would step down off that soapbox of yours very quickly. It's not always about the science or the environment. So, no, I'm not going to try and guess why they are doing what they are doing.

As for why Bayer is doing it...use your head! Bayer stands to lose a lot of money if they aren't selling an entire line of products in an entire geographical region. A LOT of money. So, naturally they are going to come up w/an alternative to something they are temporarily (for now) unable to sell. That is simply good business...not an admission of trouble/guilt/or anything else. Like I said...you read into things that which suits your agenda.

OK...I'm done here. I realize even my typing right now is nothing more than wasted energy because you will likely twist my words AGAIN. Like I said, big, dense, wall. I won't be responding to any more comments...it's not admission to anything on part (I feel compelled to explain my future absence for fear of you making up some crazy explanation that blends in w/your train of thought) except that I am done trying to bring balance to the conversation. I was hoping balance would keep things in perspective...but, no, it's just clearly gone off the rails and I suspect the only thing I've accomplished is to frustrate myself. Head. against. wall. bang. bang. bang.

[Note to self - add this genre of discussion into the mix w/religion and politics....off limits on an orchid forum.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Brooke

The quote from you above shows your inability to understand what a company will do when faced with the loss of one of their products. They change direction so they can continue to sell a product.
Before I bow out of this thread I will say again, the new family of insecticides that is "considered" to be more bee friendly, hasn't been determined yet.
Brooke

Actually this is what I said " I don't know if this is a shell game by Bayer but if it is a different subclass to the others and is not dangerous to bees, then a win for everyone !"
Evidently for some its preferable to believe the manufacturer regarding its original product and just dismiss the manufacturer's reasons when "they change direction so they can continue to sell a product"..........because the safety of the new product hasn't been determined yet !!! What about the safety of the old product ? err......surely common sense dictates that the manufacturer is going to be VERY careful with a replacement product seeing that there is so much focus on these issues by concerned people ? HD has stated that its suppliers are reformulating their products too. So should we all rise up and say, no that's not necessary - until we see scientific proof that the replacement product is safe ? Geez people...


another good example. The use of BPA in baby bottles and other plastics has either been banned outright in certain countries or companies have self-restricted its use. Maybe through consumer pressure, but honestly who cares. There is NO 100% scientific conclusive proof that its use is dangerous to babies and infants. Would you rather err on the side of caution and not buy these products or buy them until there is 100% scientific proof they are not ? Or do different morals apply when it comes to man vs. nature ?

[dounoharm]

well, this thread seems to have gone too far with differences of opinion...there is no 'right or wrong' view that counts....we are at the mercy of the chemical companies and the policies of different governments and their studies...the basic facts are: there are horrible bugs that will kill your orchids and we must eradicate them....I feel the best way to handle sucking insects is to use a systemic insecticide...this type insecticide actually is absorbed into the tissue of the plant, when the insect takes a bite, they die....that is very fulfilling to me, it makes me feel good to kill the buggers that suck the life out of my plants!....topical application chemicals just don't do the job with scale and mealies, you can spray soap and alcohol from now till doomsday and they will still be there munching! their young and eggs are too small to be seen by the human eye, and they hide in every crack and crevice of your plant, and spread like wildfire!....if you have mealies or scale on one plant, you better treat every plant in your whole house, upstairs and down, because they are THERE!...now, for me, I just go and buy what is available in systemic insecticides...I like the imidacloprid chemicals, THEY WORK! but, if they change to another chemical, I will use that...I don't ask the bugs what they prefer to die with...and I don't debate with the bees either....I just grow my plants.....there are chemical engineers and scientists who know much more than I ever will who do that job...I think debating the POSSIBLE harm one chemical COULD MAYBE HAVE on honeybees is beyond the scope of most orchid growers and hobbyists....it has obviously stirred the ire of some people here, but that is not the purpose of this board, and we should all 'agree to disagree' on this subject and move on...please, no more soapboxes!

ps. I love you ALL and appreciate your input and opinions on the orchids, its all informative!