Bees Bayer Systemic Pesticide

[NYCorchidman]

No, I was referring to your first post, not the second one.

You can read your own carefully and see what it sounds like to you.

I do not want to repeat what I wrote earlier, but you are doing it again on this latest one of yours.

Most is rather ambiguous term, but it still means a lot or significant many. You believe most people are this way or that way. based on what?? most people are not as stupid as you might think.

I don't think I read into you, but rather based on what you wrote.

Have a nice life~

[katrina]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

Have a nice life~

You bet...and I hope you do the same.

[Orchid Whisperer]

This thread is getting WAY off topic and IMO a bit too heated.

Folks, I think we can all agree that ANY pesticide (or fungicide, etc.) should be used only when necessary.
I use the Bayer products, only when needed. I also use neem, also only when needed. When used as directed, and only when needed, I don't think either product will lead to bee colony collapse. Lacking better research than I have seen in articles on the web, I am skeptical that imidacloprid use on orchids is causing major problems with bees.

My mind is open on such matters, but I need to see scientifically valid, peer-reviewed published research to be convinced. Got any? And I mean more than just web sites with an axe to grind, on either side of the subject.

[MattWoelfsen]

But when two of the most active and well thought of orchid growers in our community cross swords, or in our case--inflorescence, it makes for an entertaining AND informative thread!

Orchid Whisperer, I agree that we should use our remedies with careful and thoughtful application. I am battling mealy bugs for the past month with limited success. Now I'm going to Plan B and use Neem Oil. In the mean time, I'm going to order SucraShield from First Ray.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

My mind is open on such matters, but I need to see scientifically valid, peer-reviewed published research to be convinced. Got any? And I mean more than just web sites with an axe to grind, on either side of the subject.

My mind is open too. Heck exactly who do the Europeans and the EPA think they are trying to influence my purchasing habits ? Where are my freedumbz? However I do think that I need to see "scientifically valid, peer-reviewed published research to be convinced" to buy any product containing this chemical to use on my orchids and garden. "Got any?"

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

Originally Posted by MattWoelfsen

I am battling mealy bugs for the past month with limited success. Now I'm going to Plan B and use Neem Oil. In the mean time, I'm going to order SucraShield from First Ray.

I have tried just about everything too - the latest being Garden Safe Insecticidal Soap. Somebody had mentioned an earbud dipped in alcohol. I'm onto that now as luckily I only have the problem on an isolated plant. I can't believe how fast they can climb up a 2ft spike !

[Orchid Whisperer]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

My mind is open too. Heck exactly who do the Europeans and the EPA think they are trying to influence my purchasing habits ? Where are my freedumbz? However I do think that I need to see "scientifically valid, peer-reviewed published research to be convinced" to buy any product containing this chemical to use on my orchids and garden. "Got any?"

So, I guess that's a "no" to my question?

You have freedom to purchase anything you wish!

Here is the reason I say that I say "got any" regarding that research. Do you remember the hysteria a few years back over childhood MMR vaccines? The claim was made that they were causing autism in children. There were lots of people advocating against vaccinations, based on the fraudulent publication of one UK doctor who falsified patient records (he later lost his medical license).

Then, other scientists started doing epidemiological studies, carefully looking at the data, having peers review the results, and publishing the results. Guess what? No disease link. But, there are STILL celebrities, politicians and bloggers, claiming there is a danger. The damage done is that many fearful parents keep their kids from getting vaccinations, even to this day, exposing kids to disease (there was a huge spike in measles cases after the fraudulent study).

So, dumbz old me will wait until I see the research. Until I am convinced by research, I will keep using imidacloprid when needed. You have the freedom to use whatever you like.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

Originally Posted by MattWoelfsen

(snip here by OW) I am battling mealy bugs for the past month with limited success. Now I'm going to Plan B and use Neem Oil. In the mean time, I'm going to order SucraShield from First Ray.

Hi Matt

I have used neem only for it's fungicidal properties so far. Having battled mealies before, I hope you will post regarding how well neem and Sucrashield work for you. Good luck, and keep us posted!

[orchidsarefun]

I am surprised you use the vaccination example because, using your logic, shouldn't you have been insisting on scientific studies proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that autism ISN'T caused by vaccinations ?
In my note # 17 I supplied evidence - OK, the EPA website - that the EPA agrees with the Europeans, other people have supplied evidence - OK from ( reputable ) websites - that imidocliprod IS toxic to bees and its impact on bee colonies is worthy of further research. I haven't seen anything claiming that the chemical ISN'T toxic to bees - if you have anything in a scientific study, please reference. Yet you continue to say that you will use it.
You gave the pro-vaccinations crowd the benefit of the doubt, but you dismiss out of hand, the anti-imadicloprid crowd ?

[Orchid Whisperer]

The EPA and EFSA both concluded that imidacloprid and other neonicotinoids needed further review. EPA did not institute a ban, the Europeans did, for 2 years, while data is further reviewed. The EFSA news release cites a number of data gaps that needed to be addressed.

My orchids, which very rarely get treated with any pesticide of any kind, are not exactly a bee-atractive crop, as they are indoors while blooming. I therefore see no good reason to discontinue using the Bayer products, so I'll continue to use them when needed.

Again, you are free to use what you want.

[orchidsarefun]

Orchid Whisperer - not to belabour the point, but I have tried to point out that you appear to have accepted the use of Bayer without the same rigour you now expect of the anti-Bayer crowd. Did you require scientific proof of its safety before you started using it ? If so, I have asked a couple of times to see evidence. Bit of a double standard ?

There is power in numbers. If, for arguments sake, 750,000 people use this insecticide 1x per month in gardens, greenhouses and indoors, then ANY reduction can only be a good thing. Are you saying that its a bad thing to try and limit the use of chemicals? No-one is saying that people can't buy whatever they like or prefer. I am saying however that it should be after careful review, organic or non-organic.

With the EU considered action, what is the downside to stop using Bayer ? there are plenty of alternatives ? If, after 2 years they lift the ban, then everyone can start using it again if they want to ? Would you have been put in undue hardship by not using it for 2 years ? There is an expression "better safe than sorry" and I always err on the side of safe. Action by the consumer always leads to an improvement - there are numerous examples, frying oil at McDonalds, this new thing at Subway and so on. If enough consumers react, then companies do innovate. I thank the Europeans for this as they seem to be far ahead of us in terms of trying to ensure environmental safety.

[Orchid Whisperer]

EPA has a rigorous process for reviewing and approving pesticides in the first place. So, no double standard. They also have a review process for products previously approved, in case they missed something. Again, no double standard.

If you are implying that I am against minimizing the use of chemicals, you have not read my earlier posts in this thread.

My decision (and last time I checked, it was still my decision) is to continue using the very effective Bayer products when necessary. I suggest you do the same, and use what you feel is appropriate.

I stand by my opinion that minimal use on plants that only bloom indoors poses virtually no risk to bees.