Bees Bayer Systemic Pesticide

[Orchid Whisperer]

Woah! Easy does it, Dave!!

I completely sympathize with the thoughts that not everything "organic" is safe, and not everything considered safe is "organic". I actually have a problem with the feel-good, marketing term "organic" because it does not really mean what people think it means.

But when you say "All you have to do is look at the name or structure to deduce that chlorpyrifos is an organophosphate acetylcholinesterase inhibitor and likely to be significantly toxic to mammals as well as insects", well, I think maybe less than 5% of folks on this site have the skill set to deduce that. OK, maybe WAY less than 5%, even though ther are lots of bright folks on this site!. I consider myself slightly smarter than the average bear (PhD, Geology), but when I see phrases like "organophosphate acetylcholinesterase inhibitor", well, I go a bit cross-eyed, and drool out of the left corner of my mouth (maybe that's an indication that I have been exposed to an organophosphate acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, but I really don't know). I could probably look it up, but it would take me a bit of time to understand what that means (and I certainly could not deduce it from the name chlorpyrifos).

FWIW, I think that evaluating pesticides, herbicides, household chemicals, etc. for their safety and efficacy is a very worthwhile and noble pursuit. The bad ones are replaced by better ones over time. Over the decades, though, I think the dangers of some chemicals are overblown (traces of trihalomethanes in treated drinking water concern me far less than E. coli or cholera , for example).

Cheers!

[NYCorchidman]

I think some people misunderstood the original post. EU is banning the use of the named chemical for all, not just hobby grower. so why making comments about why we hobby growers have to suffer and what it does to the overall environment?

Speaking of which, I also believe that everyone can make a difference. One person here and there makes the whole world in the end, isn't it?

Some of the comments here I find very irresponsible and thoughtless. No wonder the world is a mess!

Katrina- Don't you think "partial" recycling and at least making an effort however imperfect is still better than not doing it altogether??

Also, I think you took the organic way far off. Organic does mean safer for both us and the environment. While the effect of both synthetic and "organic" pesticides (for one example) will do the job of killing insects, synthetic chemicals linger on in the environment while ones made with naturally deriven material breaks down more readily.

Another example are meat and poultry. Organic products are the ones not fed or treated with growth hormone, antibiotic and such. These are not only bad for the animals (at least not nice, isn't is?), it affects our health as well.

You sound very negative. The world has been polluted for years already now, so let's keep on going? I don't think that is the right mindset at all.

[orchidsarefun]

more power to the people......who care........

Subway bread chemical appears on many restaurant chain menus

I find it ironic that chains are doing something about this, they wouldn't have to if its "harmless" or defensible or an over-reaction, would they ? Name and shame is very effective.

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

... I find it ironic that chains are doing something about this, they wouldn't have to if its "harmless" or defensible or an over-reaction, would they ?

Yes they would have to do something even if it is harmless or an over reaction. It is the public perception that is important, not reality.

[Leafmite]

We've been growing fruit trees for a while...you wouldn't imagine how many pesticides are now banned that we once used...and for good reason.
I agree that not all organic methods are safe but some are safer than others. I've been hearing how some people are spraying cooking oil onto their plants to snuff out the bugs...that is what I might try. Some of my plants are just so sensitive and I usually have a few lady bugs that come inside, too.
For those who want to go natural, one herb that is a pretty good pest deterrent is wormwood. I found that by potting some and putting it among my plants, very few of my plants were touched last summer. Too bad it doesn't do so well indoors for me.
The problem with many pesticides is that the production, too, often causes pollution and hazards as well (think India, Union Carbide). The important thing is to use them responsibly and to follow the directions.

[katrina]

NYOrchidman -- I will agree that every little bit helps. I will completely disagree w/the fact that I am being negative and I certainly never said that we should just keep doing what we are doing. Please reread my comments if that's what you took from it because that is not even close to what I was saying.

As for organic being safer...that is not always the case. Period. You can try to argue the point all you wish but the facts are the facts and organic doesn't necessarily mean safer. I'm not saying it's bad or worthless or even that in some case it isn't better...quite the contrary...for crying out loud I stated I buy organic w/some things. The problem comes in that many people simply do not have a good grasp on what that word really means. People see the word "organic" and they equate that word to safe. They see it on a pesticide and "hey, it's ok to go spraying and pouring away". These same people tend to scream about how bad "chemicals" are..."Hey, no worries...it's "organic". I'm sorry but I call that more irresponsible than any one word of my post.

Look, I'm not saying organic is bad and that people should't try to make a difference but I am saying that don't be fooled by the word. I'm saying/trying to say/intending to make the point...that the issues at hand are WAY bigger than what we use to kill insects on our orchids. I'm not saying and I never did say that using "natural" first is a bad thing but if you continue to spray neem time and time and time again...for years on end...that is more damaging to you and the environment than using a systemic responsibly a couple of times. That's a fact. Look it up.

I admitted to getting off track in my comments...as did you w/the whole poultry and beef comment. (I have a better understanding of some of that than you would ever imagine.) But, like I said...the issue is much bigger than what we use to treat mealies and scale (or whatever other insect that bothers a person) and I just get tired of the misinformation that abounds...hence the reason for my comments.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by katrina

I'm not saying and I never did say that using "natural" first is a bad thing but if you continue to spray neem time and time and time again...for years on end...that is more damaging to you and the environment than using a systemic responsibly a couple of times. That's a fact. Look it up.

you keep mentioning neem oil. Please supply a reference to back up your statement as I am unable to find anything meaningful - other than to say there are dangers when this is taken orally and it is not recommended for children or pregnant women ( along with plenty of other herbs I can think of ). No pesticide should be taken orally and care should be taken when spraying ALWAYS ?
Neem oil has been used extensively in India for topical treatments - for centuries......
I haven't found any reference to a long-term negative impact ( "damaging" ) on the environment as you claim.

Neem Safety, Neem Side Effects And Neem Toxicity

Neem Oil General Fact Sheet

[Ray]

EXTOXNET used to be the "gold standard of pesticide info. Now it is maintained in a less technically-oriented fashion at the National Pesticide Information Center website.

From it about neem oil:

"Neem oil is practically non-toxic to birds, mammals, bees and plants. Neem oil is slightly toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms. Azadirachtin, a component of neem oil, is moderately toxic to fish and other aquatic animals. It is important to remember that insects must eat the treated plant to be killed. Therefore, bees and other pollinators are not likely to be harmed."

My avoidance of using neem oil is based upon it being an oil, and the risk of losing spikes and buds if applied wrong. And it's not particularly effective compared to other pesticides.

[NYCorchidman]

Katrina- I just went back and read your earlier comment and it does sound rather negative and pessimistic to me, the overall tone is.

Also, now you are adding the word "not necessarily". It makes a whole lot of difference in what you're saying. Earlier, you made it sound like organic product is all fake and that's where I came in. I never said organic is all perfect and great.
now by your adding that word "necessarily" you are only fixing yourself and partially admit your wrong.

Plus, I sense that you are quite sensitive and passionate about the topic, which I understand, but I think you took it too far and too general as if everyone who buys or supports organic product or its concept is of the same kind. I don't think I mentioned anything that can be considered blindly praising or sugar coating the organic products.

Being in NYC, I have LOTs of "crazy" people whose idea and belief I find funny. Like you pointed out, these are the ones who equate organic as more nutritious and better than non-organic which is not necessarily true. These are the ones who I call "organic victims" lol

Even in this case, I still respect the idea behind the green movement. Trying to protect the world we live in.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

Katrina- I just went back and read your earlier comment and it does sound rather negative and pessimistic to me, the overall tone is.

That's the problem w/internet...assigning a "tone" to words w/out the added benefit of seeing someone's face or hearing their voice...it can be very inaccurate. Maybe it says more about the reader than than the person who typed the words? Maybe not. ??

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

Earlier, you made it sound like organic product is all fake and that's where I came in.

I never said fake nor did I allude to organic being fake. Not even close.

I stand by my comments...there is a lot of misinformation out there when it comes to the word "organic". Plain and simple...many people really don't understand what it means. Overall it's better today than it was 10 years ago...even 5 years ago...but there is certainly still room for improved education on the topic. Especially on the web.

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

Plus, I sense that you are quite sensitive and passionate about the topic, which I understand, but I think you took it too far and too general as if everyone who buys or supports organic product or its concept is of the same kind. I don't think I mentioned anything that can be considered blindly praising or sugar coating the organic products.

You can't know someone from a few comments on a forum and trying to assign knowledge based on some abstract emotions you think you read into words...well, it can lead you down a very wrong path. It might surprise you to know that I ran a "green" product business for 5 yrs. Bet you couldn't have guesses that, eh? I am all about finding better ways and using products that are better for us and our environment. Hell, I make many of my own cleaning products!

I simply (or so I thought) stated that people should not think that organic automatically means safe and that it doesn't mean chemical-free...or more specifically, pesticide-free. An "organic" pesticide is still a pesticide and it's not always better...some can kill beneficials just as well as any synthetic pesticide. (I went back there because that's where all of this started.)

I don't expect you to know this but I have some pretty extreme chemical sensitivities...but I don't automatically lump all chems as bad. For nearly 20 years I have been unable to use many of the products that most people use w/out even giving it a second thought. Not me. Can't do it...not across the board. So, no, I don't think the concepts are bad or wrong or worthless...and I never said anything of the nature. What I did say (and I stand by it) is that many people really don't have a good grasp of the topic and they tend to spout a lot of incorrect facts when they start going on and on about organic.

Quite frankly, it's all the misinformation out there that makes it difficult to get people on board w/many of the ideas/concepts/changes. I said it before...I'll say it (er, type it) again...I just wish more people would better educate themselves on the word "organic" ( as well as "all natural", no GMO, green, etc) so they know what they are talking about when they opt to talk about it.

And BTW - I never lumped all people into any of my comments...I specifically used the terms 'many' and 'some'.

And, for the record...I am not typing any of this w/any negative or hostile emotions. I'm not trying to offend and I certainly don't wish to argue or fight about things. I am simply trying (albeit, in a very wordy manner) to make sure I was not misunderstood and/or clear up any misunderstanding my previous words have apparently created.

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

you keep mentioning neem oil. Please supply a reference to back up your statement as I am unable to find anything meaningful - other than to say there are dangers when this is taken orally and it is not recommended for children or pregnant women ( along with plenty of other herbs I can think of ). No pesticide should be taken orally and care should be taken when spraying ALWAYS ?
Neem oil has been used extensively in India for topical treatments - for centuries......
I haven't found any reference to a long-term negative impact ( "damaging" ) on the environment as you claim.

Neem Safety, Neem Side Effects And Neem Toxicity

Neem Oil General Fact Sheet

Sorry, I missed your request earlier. I'll have to go back and check but I believe I mentioned Neem only once. And, it was only in response to your comment that something was toxic to birds. Organic/all-natural products can also harm birds/insects...and since the original topic dealt w/bees...I brought up Neem.

Here's the MSDS sheet I referenced...check out section 6.

http://www.biconet.com/botanicals/in...eemOilMSDS.pdf