Bees Bayer Systemic Pesticide

[james mickelso]

Thanks Ray. I'll read up on it. I assume that is the trade name.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

point of organic vs chemical is that organic is ( usually ) a contact insecticide that only works if the insect is sprayed directly and is harmless ( to everything ) at other times. Unlike chemicals there are no long-lasting residual effects. Its the residual effect that causes the problems, usually in the water supply, or if used outdoors - in other plants and soil.

Sorry.... I think this is painting with too broad of a brush and blurring facts. I am not arguing that persistent chemical residues are not a problem, but it's not as simple as "organic" versus "chemical".

I don't know how the USDA and OMRI decide something is "organic" (it's certainly not in the true chemical sense), but they are still "chemicals".

Sucrose octanoate esters are certainly chemicals, yet the products using it are considered to be OMRI Organic.

And not all chemical toxins lay around undisturbed, where they can contaminate soils and water supplies.

Acephate (most commonly purchased as Orthene in the orchid world) is a highly effective (i.e., toxic) systemic organophosphate insecticide. While it is toxic by itself on contact, it is its metabolites, sequestered within the plants, that provide the residual effect that can last up to about two weeks. Any unabsorbed acephate will decompose rapidly upon exposure to UV, and any dripping into the soil breaks down in in a matter of a few days, with its major metabolite being carbon dioxide.

[orchidsarefun]

I suppose the bottom line is the definition of "long-lasting". I looked up your example - and that is something I definitely wouldn't use personally - and that lasts between 4.5 and 32 days in soil ( per attachment ), and is highly toxic to bees. As far as I am aware, and at least for the organic sprays I use, once the spray is dried then it is no longer "toxic". Isn't this lack of long-lasting effectiveness part of the problem in that you have to regularly preventive spray ?

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/acephagen.pdf

Orthene is also detrimental to birds
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publication.../psw_rp148.pdf.

The overall point is - and this is probably from a very high level - its better to go organic whenever and wherever possible. There is no harm in saying that......whereas there has been a lot of harm when chemicals were commonly used as pesticides in the past. ( DDT, chlorpyrifos are classic examples )

[Leafmite]

I do use granular systemic on my roses and, in the fall, houseplants. I also spray my fruit trees with fungicides/insecticides. However, I don't treat the yard, any herbs, flowers, the trees are sprayed after the blossoms fall, and I provide sources of necter from snow melt until first frost for the bees and butterflies (I raised monarch butterflies for over 35 years). Pesticides should be used only when absolutely necessary and always with the thought of the environment. I would never use an herbicide after what I have read.
I have never used pesticides or fungicides on the orchids as they can easily be cleaned off with isopropyl alcohol. I am likely going to go organic with the indoor plants this autumn. The fruit trees and roses, however, wouldn't survive without insecticides/fungicides.
I think that insecticides and fungicides are great tools but only if there is nothing else that will work. It is important to read about them, the studies that have been done with them and to use them in the correct way.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Orthene is also detrimental to birds
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publication.../psw_rp148.pdf.

And some "organic" pest controls are deadly to fish and birds. Read about the results of rotenone-pyrethrin mixtures used for pest control in produce. The combo is "organic" and derived from plants and flowers...but if I had a pond...no way would I spray it anywhere near my pond. And, yet, its' approved for use in organic farming.

That beloved Neem oil that everyone goes on and on about...look up the MSDS sheet on it. Oh, and for the record...it's highly toxic to bees.

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

The overall point is - and this is probably from a very high level - its better to go organic whenever and wherever possible. There is no harm in saying that......whereas there has been a lot of harm when chemicals were commonly used as pesticides in the past. ( DDT, chlorpyrifos are classic examples )

The real problem..as I see it...is that most people don't truly understand the meaning of "organic". Hell, even the powers that be can't seem to effectively settle on ONE definition/descriptor/ruling across the board.

Organic does not mean safe nor does it mean pesticide and/or chemical free. It just a fancy name for derived from natural sources. You can have pesticides that are derived from natural sources but they are still pesticides and they can still have a negative impact on beneficial insects...especially if they are not used properly.

Synthetic vs organic...it's still a pesticide. Spraying non-organic pesticides might require 1 or 2 treatments...organic pesticides might require repeated treatments over weeks over the life of the plants...is that really better?

I wouldn't even begin to try to act like I know what's best for any creature on this planet. I think there is still far too much that's unknown and a lot more research needs to be done. However, in my mind...less is best. Be that organic or synthetic...the less we are spraying...the better for all involved.

If any of you don't believe that "organic" can be harmful...just look up the MSDS fact sheets on some of the "organic" products being sold/used/approved for use.

BTW -- If people want to get on a soapbox about toxic products....try looking into many of the products we are using in our homes for cleaning/deodorizing/washing/etc. Take a look at some of those labels and then look up some of those names that most can't pronounce. Even dryer sheets have a warning. Laundry detergent? OMG! Dishwasher detergent? Holy crap! Bleach to keep your whites white? EEEKS!

Chemicals have made our life better in many ways but yes, they are having an impact on us and our environment. Then again, so is everything else that has changed in the past 100 yrs. The issues are far more widespread and all encompassing than just a pesticide and only pointing fingers at what we use to kill mealies or scale...well, it's very short-sighted and quite frankly, rather naive (at best). How many of you complaining about systemics...how many of you throw your used batteries in the trash? Uh-huh...that's what I thought. What about recycling...how many of you recycle all the products/materials you use rather than just throwing those in landfill? Uh-huh.

Sorry, I got off track there. The point I'm trying to make is that organic certainly does not mean safer and I really wish people would do a better job of reading up on the subject. I buy organic w/certain things (like strawberries and lettuce) but I have educated myself on the word and it's meaning...I wish others would do the same.

Sorry if I sound like a b***h but the overwhelming misinformation regarding what "organic" really means and what it really is...well, it's a major pet peeve of mine. People, people, people...*puleeeease* educate yourselves.
[steps down of MY soapbox]

[quiltergal]

Well said!

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

The overall point is - and this is probably from a very high level - its better to go organic whenever and wherever possible. There is no harm in saying that......whereas there has been a lot of harm when chemicals were commonly used as pesticides in the past. ( DDT, chlorpyrifos are classic examples )

And another "new" one - azodicarbonamide - which is going to be withdrawn through basically a one-woman blog campaign !
Subway says it's removing chemical from bread: Associated Press Business News - MSN Money

I stand by my point in the quote above. I don't believe I claimed that organic is not "harmful". I am saying its preferable to non-organic chemicals because that is what I believe, based on extensive ( maybe revised ) scientific history, studies on residual effects, and an unpleasant experience when I used chlorpyrifos - a supposed safe chemical back in the days.

This is an interesting article
Organic Pest Control for Organic Gardening - Natural Insecticides

[lepetitmartien]

On the bees issue, new study with EU funding:
Pesticides halve bees' pollen gathering ability, research shows | EurActiv

Details of importance are to be cleared but there is a point here. Note that the Bayer's claim is in the line of all the criticisms they make amongst other chemist against the actual temporary ban (and forthcoming general pesticide ban save for cultures)

[DavidCampen]

OMRI lists rotenone as an allowed "Organic" pesticide. Rotenone has also been shown to cause Parkinson's disease.
Generic Materials Search: rotenone | Organic Materials Review Institute

Rotenone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So just because OMRI lists something as "Organic" and "allowed" does not mean that it is safe. There are a number of laboratory made insecticides that are safer than rotenone.

I would like to look through OMRI's complete list of "Organic" and "allowed" materials but OMRI is a For Profit institution and it seems that you have to pay them money if you want to see a complete list.

---------- Post added at 10:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 AM ----------

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

based on extensive ( maybe revised ) scientific history, studies on residual effects, and an unpleasant experience when I used chlorpyrifos - a supposed safe chemical back in the days.
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Someone told you that chlorpyriphos (aka Dursban) was "safe", that is a relative term. All you have to do is look at the name or structure to deduce that chlorpyrifos is an organophosphate acetylcholinesterase inhibitor and likely to be significantly toxic to mammals as well as insects.
Chlorpyrifos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[orchidsarefun]

Actually 20 years ago chlorpyrifos WAS considered safe and was freely available and recommended, at least in the 3rd world country I was in. I am sure that a lot of 1st world banned chemicals are still being dumped on 3rd world countries in the name of charity.

Again - as it seems to have been too high level a point - I PREFER organic insecticides/pesticides/food/disposables and so on. That doesn't mean that I don't do any research on alternatives. I thought that was common-sense.

I posted this link previously, which explains some "harmful" organic pesticides. Rotenone is mentioned with its drawbacks.

Organic Pest Control for Organic Gardening - Natural Insecticides