Treatment for mycelium on Phal Poots and Drying Bud Question

[czygyny]

I recently repotted a Phal with fresh bark. After about a month I was horrified to see tiny white pinpricks of mushroom mycelium all over the roots and around in the medium.

I rinsed the roots thoroughly and soaked the bottom of the plant in a mild solution of baking soda for a few minutes and tossed out the bark and started over.

Is there a standard procedure for treatment, either chemical or household preparations, that I can consider if this happens again?

Also, my first-ever Phal was obtained decades ago and it bloomed and stayed healthy for many years. It eventually would not hold the buds to opening, but they would wither and die. Nothing I did helped and I finally discarded the plant.

What could have happened to it since I had been so successful up to that point? None of my present orchids do this, other than my Miltonia, which never does well.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Not enough info about what could have caused the buds of your Phal to not open up well.

It could've been from:

- lack of adequate humidity

- possible root damage

- virus

- under watering

- stress of being moved around too much

Who knows.


Miltonia or Miltoniopsis?

Pansy Orchids are actually known as Miltoniopsis, not Miltonia. True Miltonia look much different florally.

Miltoniopsis are generally cool - intermediate growing orchids that usually don't like the temperatures being any warmer than 85 F. 90 F is pushing it for some.


As for the fungal problem...

Fungal spores are everywhere, it just takes the proper environment for them to germinate.

What is it about the growing environment that the Phal is growing in that's encouraging fungal growth? Can you change it to discourage fungal growth and promote Phalaenopsis health?

Is it cool, damp, and shady with somewhat poor air circulation? Is there decaying vegetative organic matter? 'Cause those are the most favorite conditions for most fungus to grow in.

Tropical Phals grow in humid areas that are intermediate to warm in temperature with consistent moisture and decent air circulation.

[czygyny]

Thanks for the info.

The phal with the failing buds had no different care than the many years before it...it just suddenly would not bring blooms to maturity. Perhaps it was a viral infection or something.

I guess my question for the fungal problem was how to treat the plant itself other than what I did for it. I've had other problems over the years with just plain old rot, and have changed my growing techniques over time.

I've had mushroom growth in terrariums and even in houseplant soil over time, but that was the first time I'd seen a teeming colony like that on fresh bark medium.

Since baking soda is indicated for other fungal treatments like mildew and bacterial problems, and since it was on hand I decided to use it on the plant. It works great, too, on sour sponges. Just a couple of teaspoons rinsed slowly through the sponge will instantly remove the bacterial sour smell.

I tend to crowd plants, but my potting and watering routines have improved success rates. This summer the plants were in moderately humid and very warm conditions with good airflow. The main garden window was in the high 80s during the days at times.

The Miltoniopsis (see below, apparently IS a miltonia (?)) will just have to like what it gets, I suppose. I had it outside this summer where it was shady and got over-sprayed by lawn sprinklers, and despite the 114°F highs, it did well in vegetative growth but no flowers.

Inside where the temps were a bit more moderated, it just sat and sulked with accordianed flower spikes. I guess I'll stick with Phals. They're my favorite, anyway.

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------

Oh hey...forgot to look at the label that came with the plant! It says 'Initiated Miltonia Breathless 'Florence'.'

Most of my plants do not come with labels, at least with a real name other than a production number and vague description.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by czygyny

Thanks for the info.

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by czygyny

The Phal with the failing buds had no different care than the many years before it...it just suddenly would not bring blooms to maturity. Perhaps it was a viral infection or something.

Without numerical values for the parameters, it's difficult to tell you what happened, especially without photos to accompany the information.

I guess you're just gonna have to chuck it up to being a, so-called "viral problem", then, idk.

Not trying to be snarky here, but there's not much I can say to help in this department without the proper and adequate information to troubleshoot the problem.

Originally Posted by czygyny

I guess my question for the fungal problem was how to treat the plant itself other than what I did for it. I've had other problems over the years with just plain old rot, and have changed my growing techniques over time.

I've had mushroom growth in terrariums and even in houseplant soil over time, but that was the first time I'd seen a teeming colony like that on fresh bark medium.

You can put baking soda on your plants till your face is blue, but it's not going to solve the problem.

To be honest with you, I'm not even sure putting baking soda on your plants repeatedly would be a good idea. It might create other unforeseen problems later down the line; who knows.

Your problem is much bigger than the occasional mushroom popping up in your plants' pots, they sound like they're everywhere.

The way you describe things, it makes it seem as if the place where you grow plants is very well suited to growing fungi. There's something not right about that.

Either there's something very wrong, or the type of fungi you're describing is a naturally occurring fungi that is beneficial to a lot of the plants that are native to the area you live in.

Plants in general have a symbiotic relationship with fungi. This symbiotic relationship benefits both organisms. Symbiotic fungi are called mycorrhizal fungi.

First thing's first...

You gotta figure out why fungi is popping up like daisies.

Originally Posted by czygyny

Since baking soda is indicated for other fungal treatments like mildew and bacterial problems, and since it was on hand I decided to use it on the plant.

I'm not too familiar with the specific chemical properties of baking soda other than the fact that it is sodium bicarbonate.

Originally Posted by czygyny

I tend to crowd plants, but my potting and watering routines have improved success rates. This summer the plants were in moderately humid and very warm conditions with good airflow. The main garden window was in the high 80s during the days at times.

I'm not sure what to make of this piece of information.

It could be a possible reason as to why you may have fungal problems, idk.

Could you provide a photo of your plants?

Originally Posted by czygyny

The Miltoniopsis (see below, apparently IS a miltonia (?))...

Miltoniopsis have been separated from the genus Miltonia for a while already. Sellers continue to use the old genus name for whatever reasons they have.

I understand people tend to remember the name Miltonia easier than the name Miltoniopsis, but they are not grown the same way, and florally, they don't even look remotely close to each other.

Miltoniopsis look like pansies.

Miltonia have star shaped flowers.

Originally Posted by czygyny

...[Miltoniopsis] will just have to like what it gets, I suppose. I had it outside this summer where it was shady and got over-sprayed by lawn sprinklers, and despite the 114°F highs, it did well in vegetative growth but no flowers.

As long as you know what's up, I guess it's fine.

Originally Posted by czygyny

Oh hey...forgot to look at the label that came with the plant! It says 'Initiated Miltonia Breathless 'Florence'.'

The name should actually read like so:

Miltoniopsis Breathless 'Florence'

or, if you're using the old genus name:

Miltonia Breathless 'Florence'

I don't know why they added the word "Initiated" in there.

Originally Posted by czygyny

Inside where the temps were a bit more moderated, it just sat and sulked with accordianed flower spikes. I guess I'll stick with Phals. They're my favorite, anyway.

Accordion looking leaves signify either:

1. Under watering.

2. A large amount of dead roots that prevent the plant from obtaining enough water to grow properly.

You gotta figure out which it is. In order to do this, you have to check the roots.

In order to do that, I recommend wetting the potting media down thoroughly before carefully removing the orchid from the pot and checking the roots for any problems.

If you can provide photos of your plants that'd be great.



In regards to Phals, there's no shortage of advice and info on the OB. Do a search and you will literally pull up hundreds of threads.

Of course, if you'd like to bypass the hundreds of threads talking about problems with Phals, you can go to the sticky in the Beginner's Forum entitled: http://www.orchidboard.com/community...ends-here.html

Originally Posted by czygyny

Most of my plants do not come with labels, at least with a real name other than a production number and vague description.

That's very common for orchids that were produced/"manufactured" in large scale nurseries/"orchid factories".

I used the words in quotation marks on purpose, I think they are closer to what things are.

[Island Girl]

I've never heard that about baking soda (being anti-fungal)... But, I wouldn't think that pouring baking soda into the media would be good for your plants either (especially since most orchids like slightly more acidic conditions) ... I gotta say, that there is something wonky about all the mushrooms you find in your grow area. I have found a couple mushrooms in my bark, but that signifies that it's time to change it, b/c it's broken down quite a bit... but, I also know why they are there... I use a beneficial fungus product, and it causes some (a little) mushroom growth, but as I said, when I see them, I know it's time for a repot... They don't grow in fresh, new bark.

---------- Post added at 03:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 AM ----------

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

What is it about the growing environment that the Phal is growing in that's encouraging fungal growth? Can you change it to discourage fungal growth and promote Phalaenopsis health?

Is it cool, damp, and shady with somewhat poor air circulation? Is there decaying vegetative organic matter? 'Cause those are the most favorite conditions for most fungus to grow in.

Tropical Phals grow in humid areas that are intermediate to warm in temperature with consistent moisture and decent air circulation.

To me, this can tell you a lot, I'd be curious to know which senario your conditions are more like?

....let me say, that the mushroom growth has me worried... What if you have mushroom growth in parts of your home that you can't see, that are perfect for fungal growth - cool, damp, and shady (there's a few places such as this that I can think of)... Fungus problems in the home can be dangerous... Maybe I'm over-reacting? (I hope so, I would hate to hear of an issue such as this).

[czygyny]

OK, I can see I've failed to communicate on a few points.

The phal in question was my first orchid ever. Obtained in the 70s. It took a rough ride home on a jr. college bus yet bloomed for perhaps ten or more years after.

It was a shot in the dark to see if any ideas could be had for its sudden decision to never bring a bloom to maturity.

The plant is long gone, at any rate. None of my present orchids do this.

Now as far as the present phal in distress; the medium was a month old, quite fresh. None of the other recently potted phals have exibited this growth.

The baking soda solution was a *SOAK* for the roots to kill any remaining problem. It never entered the growing medium, and never shall. Sometimes you can do a lot with just household chemicals for treating troubles. I'd rather avoid petrochemicals on plants that reside in my house. Well I would rather avoid them outside, too.

This little valley I live in does seem to have more fungal problems than other surrounding places. The soil is deep creek loam and most things do quite well, but I have a devil of a time with any stone fruits, none of the genera Phaseolus can make it, the common string bean, yet any of the Vigna generics, like yard-long beans, can grow.

I can only adapt the best I can to the place where I've set down my 'roots'. The climate is very hot (110°F+), very dry (10% humidity in summer). I can provide cooling down to 80-90° indoors and get the humidity up to 60% but that's it for summer. The winter temps are a bit more moderated.

I am quite aware of pH needs of plants. I am an avid gardener of a whole spectrum of ornamentals and edibles. I have enough varieties to start my own nursery (no exaggeration).

Mushrooms and rot are not popping up everywhere in my plants. I am talking about a span of more than thirty years of growing orchids and many other types of plants. Over such time stuff is going to do well, stuff is going to die.

I'm just trying to hone my orchid growing skills. Orchids are just a side hobby to my love of gardening. I'd just like to keep my nameless, mundane, store-bought, un-brag-worthy, manufactured orchids alive and robust. That's my goal. I quit the connoisseur-collecting attitude when money became tight and my desire to collect pedigrees waned.

As for the Miltonia/Miltonopsis conundrum, this is why I quit worring about the taxonomy of my cacti collection (which exceeds my orchid collection, by far).

Botanists, perhaps to justify their paycheck, keep switching generic and specific names on all sorts of cacti from year to year. They can't even agree amongst themselves who is who and what is what.

But your description is duly noted. It is a pansy orchid, it is mislabeled and once again it proves that even the experts (what the manufacturer/owners are supposed to be) don't know what they're talking about.

I have to make a new label for it anyway, it shattered into pieces when I pulled it out, so at least it will have its proper name.

At any rate, thanks for the information. I thought I had expressed myself clearly but I can see I did not. I will endeavor to spell out my needs more concisely next time.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Let me be clear on what kinds of specific information is needed in order to receive even a halfway decent diagnosis of your problem:

1. A photo.

Human beings are visually oriented creatures, and we are able to tell subtle differences in objects visually, whether we know it or not. This is scientific fact, and has its basis in biological psychology.

2. Are the plants grown indoors or outdoors?

3. Where the plants are located at the house. If grown outdoors, please be specific. If they're indoors, please give us an idea as to what room they're in, and what this is area like.

4. Temperatures.

Day and night temperatures, as well as seasonal of your growing area(s).

5. Humidity.

6. The type and intensity of lighting they're receiving.

By type of lighting, I mean - sunlight or artificial light (for example, LED's, CFL's, FL's, MH's, MV's).

Information regarding intensity of lighting can be provided using a meter or by using the best description you can use if you're eyeballing whether the lighting is enough for the plants or not.

7. Air circulation.

There is no numerical value for this, but describe as best as you can.

8. Type and size of pot.

This is important. Different types of pots have different physical properties.

Size of pot affects the balance of air and water the plants receive.

9. Type of potting media.

10. Type, brand, and NPK ratio of fertilizer. Is it urea free or not?

11. How often the orchid is getting fertilized and at what concentration in relation to what is advised on the label.

12. How often the plant is watered.

13. What kind of water is being used: tap, RO/DI, DI, rainwater.

With all of these pieces of information, it makes troubleshooting easier.

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

Originally Posted by czygyny

The phal in question was my first orchid ever. Obtained in the 70s. It took a rough ride home on a jr. college bus yet bloomed for perhaps ten or more years after.

It was a shot in the dark to see if any ideas could be had for its sudden decision to never bring a bloom to maturity.

The plant is long gone, at any rate. None of my present orchids do this.

Without a photo and without other pertinent pieces of information, the only ideas I have are:

1. Old age.

2. Viral.

Originally Posted by czygyny

Now as far as the present phal in distress; the medium was a month old, quite fresh. None of the other recently potted phals have exibited this growth.

Do you have a picture of the bark you're using that you can provide?

I'm thinking it may not have been as fresh as you think it may have been.

I've run into the problem where the bark I thought was fresh, was actually not, because it had been sitting either on the shelf at the store, or in my home for a long time before use.

Originally Posted by czygyny

The baking soda solution was a *SOAK* for the roots to kill any remaining problem. It never entered the growing medium, and never shall. Sometimes you can do a lot with just household chemicals for treating troubles. I'd rather avoid petrochemicals on plants that reside in my house. Well I would rather avoid them outside, too.

It was assumed that it was a soak or a spray of a solution of baking soda, not the powder itself that was applied.

And like I said, I don't know enough about its specific chemical properties other than it is sodium bicarbonate.

Aside from the pH, it was the sodium (Na), part of the chemical that bothers me. Too much sodium for plants is no good. There are few plants that have the mechanisms to deal with sodium.

Perhaps other people can say something more about this.

In the meantime, if it helps the situation for the time being, then I guess you can use it to eradicate the problem as best as you can.

Originally Posted by czygyny

This little valley I live in does seem to have more fungal problems than other surrounding places. The soil is deep creek loam and most things do quite well, but I have a devil of a time with any stone fruits, none of the genera Phaseolus can make it, the common string bean, yet any of the Vigna generics, like yard-long beans, can grow.

Have you thought about taking a soil and tissue sample and sending it to a soil/tissue sample lab? I know it costs money, but it could also save you money in the long run. There could be a mineral that the plants in the genus Phaseolus need that might not be present in the soil.

Either this or it could be a mycorrhizal fungi thing, where the fungi will form a symbiosis with many of the plants that thrive, and destroy the plants that are not able to form a symbiosis.

In Northern California, there might be more of the whole mycorrhizal thing going on, because quite frankly, down here it is a desert/prairie made into a city and up there it tends to be more of a forest.

Originally Posted by czygyny

I can only adapt the best I can to the place where I've set down my 'roots'. The climate is very hot (110°F+), very dry (10% humidity in summer). I can provide cooling down to 80-90° indoors and get the humidity up to 60% but that's it for summer. The winter temps are a bit more moderated.

The indoors temperatures sound just about right for Phals.

The indoors humidity of 60% is fine as well.

Originally Posted by czygyny

I am quite aware of pH needs of plants. I am an avid gardener of a whole spectrum of ornamentals and edibles. I have enough varieties to start my own nursery (no exaggeration).

Most orchids fall into the slightly acidic pH range.

Others like a more alkaline pH. Particularly those that grow on limestone rocks, cliffs, and outcrops in the wild.

Then there are the ones that love acidic soils, pH of about 3.

Originally Posted by czygyny

Mushrooms and rot are not popping up everywhere in my plants. I am talking about a span of more than thirty years of growing orchids and many other types of plants. Over such time stuff is going to do well, stuff is going to die.

Noted.

It sounded like they were growing all over the place in a very short period of time.

Originally Posted by czygyny

I'm just trying to hone my orchid growing skills. Orchids are just a side hobby to my love of gardening. I'd just like to keep my nameless, mundane, store-bought, un-brag-worthy, manufactured orchids alive and robust. That's my goal. I quit the connoisseur-collecting attitude when money became tight and my desire to collect pedigrees waned.

Everybody has different collecting/growing desires. There's no need to feel the need to have a certain attitude to be considered an orchid grower.

If you have an orchid, and it's growing, you're an orchid grower.

Originally Posted by czygyny

As for the Miltonia/Miltonopsis conundrum, this is why I quit worring about the taxonomy of my cacti collection (which exceeds my orchid collection, by far).

Cool.

Originally Posted by czygyny

Botanists, perhaps to justify their paycheck, keep switching generic and specific names on all sorts of cacti from year to year. They can't even agree amongst themselves who is who and what is what.

That can be true. It might also have something to do with pride. But occasionally, the change is justified.

Originally Posted by czygyny

But your description is duly noted. It is a pansy orchid, it is mislabeled and once again it proves that even the experts (what the manufacturer/owners are supposed to be) don't know what they're talking about.

This can be true depending on who you're talking to.

As with any hobby, you gotta separate the ones who know their stuff and those who are just spewing out a bunch of crap.

Originally Posted by czygyny

I have to make a new label for it anyway, it shattered into pieces when I pulled it out, so at least it will have its proper name.

At any rate, thanks for the information. I thought I had expressed myself clearly but I can see I did not. I will endeavor to spell out my needs more concisely next time.

No problems.

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

Btw, orchids also have the ability to utilize fungi as symbionts.

Mycorrhizal fungi symbionts may not be terribly specific, in terms of orchids, as once was thought. Although, it is known that one of the fungal symbionts for Phalaenopsis is Rhizoctonia solani, it's not to say that this particular species of fungi is the only one that can form the symbiosis. As long as the orchid and the fungi benefit from the relationship, it doesn't matter what species of fungi is in symbiosis with which type of orchid - if they can coexist, they will.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is definitely possible.

---------- Post added at 09:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

Oh, and I really encourage reading about mycorrhizal fungi. I think it would be of great benefit.

[czygyny]

Thanks. Don't get me wrong, I love to know the accurate taxonomy of the plants I grow, it is an obsession in wildflower identification. And I know it's important...it just gets nearly impossible to maintain when even the experts don't agree.

I understand the need for explicit descriptions of the how, why and where of a problem orchid. I manage to figure out most of the stumblingblocks on my own, and on those plants that fail to thrive after extra TLC, I discard. I have too many hobbies and chores to do otherwise.

It was just an age old conundrum I had hoped to solve. Now that I know that old age can take the plant's ability to bloom it is probably that alone that caused the problem with my first phal. It was old. But, I have a 40 year old Anthurium clarinervium that is still going strong after all this time. Some can continue indefinitely, some peter out after awhile.

The medium I am using at present looks to be pristine, freshly milled and dry bark. But of course spores are everywhere. The fact that the other six or seven I repotted have not shown any signs of this just shows that the one plant just happened to pick up something nasty.

The sodium bicarbonate soak should eliminate any residual infection and it was thoroughly rinsed off afterwards.

The only problem I see in culture is my habit of taking the plants outside under the shade of a tree and really giving them a deluge of water every three weeks or so. Sitting on the lawn while they drain and the leaves dry may be an invite for fungal hitchhikers. If I had any area of gravel that would be in shade long enough it would be the ideal place.

This winter I will switch to the bathtub for their rain of replenishing, and more time between waterings, so the problem may subside. Watering in place, even with the gravel filled trays, just can't seem to wet the pots well enough, hence the migration.

So I will consider the matter put to rest and go back to my lurking and learning.

[gnathaniel]

The fungus you describe doesn't sound too worrisome, IMO. Wood-digesting fungi are near-omnipresent on damp, untreated wood or bark, and though some can turn pathogenic on weak or sickly plants, most orchids seem unharmed or even benefited by their presence. If you're concerned about rot I'd suggest products like Rootshield and Subculture B (or M) , which contain beneficial fungi and bacteria that help suppress pathogenic ones. Supplementing with calcium and small quantities of aspirin are other nontoxic (and cheap) methods purported to help boost a plant's internal 'immune system'.

Treating an orchid with baking soda is not a good idea; aside from the alkalinity concern Island Girl pointed out, even fairly low concentrations of sodium ions are tough for most plants to deal with. If you haven't seen tissue damage or obvious stress since then it's probably okay, but I wouldn't recommend pushing your luck...

[Island Girl]

I can't follow all the name changes in orchids either.... Seems like cactus-growers have similar problems!

Yea, as King, I assumed you meant that the fungus growth & rot was within a short period of time! Sorry 'bout that!

...and I agree with King (again, lol) you are definitely an orchid grower, the important part of this hobby, IMHO, is not what you grow, but how much you enjoy growing what you do.

...speaking of symbiotic fungus, as Nat mentioned, as well as what I mentioned earlier about adding beneficial fungus to my orchids, I use RootShield, and I love it.... Helps to prevent root rot & damping off (u can find it at Gardener's Supply Company | End-of-Summer Clearance Sale!) works for all types of plants too, including tomatoes. ....but with this, you might get more mushrooms in your media...