Dendrobium orchid from Thailand looses leaves FAST

[ro0ter]

Hi everyone,

A year ago when I was in vacation to Thailand I have broughtgome three orchids. they were potted in coconut hisk and (maybe) my greatest stupidity is that i did not changed the medium for some good time. After I changed the medium they seemed pretty wel, the grass-like-looking one has developed nicely and the other two (dendrobiums) have stalled. They may have root mealy bugs or something, but I don't see too many roots. My first dendrobium threw a nice baby out of its (should i say) near root and it thrived for a while. Now the mother plant has some desease I don't know much about and it lost all its leaves in less than one week... the child plant has the same sympthoms: leaves got a very pronounced spottrd texture and are getting yellow from the tip towards the plant.

I have searched some forums and it may be some funghii or insects.. I also have found some crawlers with wings and some small white crawlers but not too many. I have all my orchids in a place (including nice phals which started to dry their aerian roots and lost a couple of leaves (turning yellow ofcourse).

All my orchids are in a window facing s-v-v and it may be that sometimes there's too much sun.. Who knows.

I will try to attach some photos, I hope I succeed.

Thank you all for your help!

[WhiteRabbit]

Fresh potting media/substrate, a smaller pot, if there are pests, they need to be eliminated .

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Those little white insects are harmless. They are for, 100% sure, springtails. (Thanks for trying to take a picture of them, btw. I know it was difficult, but it makes it so much easier to ID than just providing a written description.)

https://insects.tamu.edu/fieldguide/aimg1.html

They're there because your plant is providing food for it when it is dying.

As the article says, they feed on rotting organic matter.

It isn't worth trying to get rid of springtails. They don't do anything harmful to your plants. If you're really hell bent on getting rid of them, if you have small pet frogs, they'll eat those suckers up pronto.

What you should do is repot everything dying asap into fresh medium.

It would also help to find out what kind of Dendrobiums they are. Different Dendrobiums will have different habits and needs. It is not a one-size-fits-all deal with Dendrobiums. They are an extremely large genus of orchids and they don't all grow in the same kinds of habitats.

At least in the last photo, the Dendrobium has a few good living roots. So the first piece of advice is...

Keep it going! Don't give up on it. Just don't over pot the guy. Put it in as small a pot as possible and add packing peanuts at the bottom if you have to. Remove a few of the dead roots, but leave enough dead roots to anchor the plant in the pot.

For more detailed advice, name the Dendrobium, please.

[ro0ter]

Hi Sonya, Paul, everyone else,

Thank you both for the input you provided. I will do anything I can to save this orchid, as it`s one of the three given to us as a gift by Bum, the kindest member of the hotel we stayed at in Koh Samui (not trying to advertise here: Rocky`s Resort).

As for the species the orchid, I have no clue what they are, nor did they had any tag. They were usually tucked in a half-coconut (exterior shell + husk) with additional husk and tied high-enough on palm trees.

I don`t have where to get a small (clay) pot, but I have drilled a lot of holes in the transparent plastic pots I have for better aerating. Currently I keep both dendrobiums in bell-shaped cavities (two dissected 5-liter water canisters) and I haven`t watered them since I changed their medium (not even after changing it). I am only placing them inside the bells in the morning after I spray the interior of the bells, during the night they stay without bells. Should I tuck more orchid medium in the pot so it doesn`t feel over-potted? I am risking in damaging the few remaining living roots.. Also, it`s very strange that the healthiest root is going to the sky (parallel to the orchid stem)... Anyway, the roots seem to grow, I can see green tips. I am also keeping the two orchids out of the reach of sun, yet not in a very dark place.

The remaining 3 leaves are yellowing out very slowly compared to the rate when I wrote you and the youngest leave starts to open. I was very afraid of mold and insects and I thoroughly washed the whole orchid in soap-and-chlorine diluted water (1% ~ 5%) after which I showered it very well. I hope I haven`t harmed it

I have added additional pictures with the orchid + its sibling (which is quite well, but not developing as I hoped) + another grass-like orchid (the three received from Thailand).

I have received other advices from other people and from my god-son and I have prepared weeping willow water (1 liter hot infusion and 1 liter cold maceration). Today it will be 24h since the hot-infused weeping willow water is sitting, so I will bath the affected orchid in this water.

Also, thank you for identifying the bugs, I thought they were mealy bugs... My biggest fear... Yet, there are also some "drosophila melanogaster"-like bugs, - that is dark bodies with wings. I don`t know what those are.. but the camera from HTC One X+ šüçks big-time (anti-advertising, they deserve it).

I heard that a natural plant-friendly pests killer is a maceration of fine chopped garlic, fine chopped onions, fine chopped hot pepper and pepper with a drop of dish detergent. I don`t know the proportions, but will search this forum. Will this affect the orchids?

Yep, it`s quite a novel that I wrote, sorry everyone.

Kindest regards,
Dorin

[ro0ter]

And the weed-like orchid which is healthy as a horse.. Also what worries me is the texture on the orchid stem.. What may cause this texture (sore/pustules)? Root rotting? Bugs?

Thank you!

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by ro0ter

Hi Sonya, Paul...

My name's Philip.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

...I will do anything I can to save this orchid[/B], as it`s one of the three given to us as a gift by Bum, the kindest member of the hotel we stayed at in Koh Samui (not trying to advertise here: Rocky`s Resort).

I don't think anyone would mind this "ad".

Originally Posted by ro0ter

As for the species the orchid, I have no clue what they are, nor did they had any tag.

This is a big problem. It is very difficult to advise you properly in this case. You'd need to continually ask questions if you don't know what's happening to your orchid, because Dendrobium is one of the largest genus of orchids out there. The genus Dendrobium currently contains more than 1,200 - 1,600 species all throughout Asia, New Zealand, Australia, and certain islands in the South Pacific! That's a huge range of geography to cover with a huge range of different habitats/environments to cover. It simply doesn't help to "guess".

Originally Posted by ro0ter

They were usually tucked in a half-coconut (exterior shell + husk) with additional husk and tied high-enough on palm trees.

Again, this doesn't really help. Some people do this throughout the world, and you're not really emulating this type of cultural technique.

What is a bigger concern is that you learn your orchid's behaviors and needs. That's why I asked what they were.

Different types of Dendrobium behave differently from one another and will have different environmental tolerances.

Since it was growing in Thailand, it narrows it down a little bit, (when I say "a little bit", I mean a tiny bit).

At least now we know that at least they have the ability to grow in intermediate to warm in temperatures, 12.8 C - 35 C, (55 F - 95 F).

Originally Posted by ro0ter

I don`t have [or know] where to get a small (clay) pot,...

You don't need a clay pot...

Originally Posted by ro0ter

...but I have drilled a lot of holes in the transparent plastic pots I have for better aerating. Currently I keep both dendrobiums in bell-shaped cavities (two dissected 5-liter water canisters)...

You can also use 16.9 fl oz water bottles and punch lots of holes in the side and on the bottom of your homemade clear plastic pots.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

...and I haven`t watered them since I changed their medium (not even after changing it). I am only placing them inside the bells in the morning after I spray the interior of the bells, during the night they stay without bells.

How often do you water these? Unless you have them growing in an exceptionally warm area, do not keep watering them until they dry out completely. In the winter, just to be safe, since I actually don't know what kind of Dendrobium you have, reduce the amount of water they receive to once every 1 - 2 weeks and do not fertilize.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

Should I tuck more orchid medium in the pot so it doesn`t feel over-potted? I am risking in damaging the few remaining living roots..

Don't need to add any media. Too much potting media can be a problem. Especially if you're using potting media that retains quite a bit of water, such as coconut husk chips.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

Also, it`s very strange that the healthiest root is going to the sky (parallel to the orchid stem)... Anyway, the roots seem to grow, I can see green tips.

The orchid's roots may be trying to breathe. It may be getting too much water in the potting media or something.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

I am also keeping the two orchids out of the reach of sun, yet not in a very dark place.

Most Dendrobiums like moderately bright to bright indirect light. There are a few exceptions, but I don't think yours are those exceptions. So, grow yours in moderately bright indirect light first, then see if it can grow brighter or not. A clue that it might be bright enough, but not too bright as to burn the leaves is that the leaves might develop areas that are purple. Some Dendrobiums will not turn purple, so be careful!

Originally Posted by ro0ter

The remaining 3 leaves are yellowing out very slowly compared to the rate when I wrote you and the youngest leave starts to open. I was very afraid of mold and insects and I thoroughly washed the whole orchid in soap-and-chlorine diluted water (1% ~ 5%) after which I showered it very well. I hope I haven`t harmed it

"Soap and Chlorine diluted water"?

What kind of "chlorine" are you referring to? Are you talking about calcium hypochlorite or are you talking about sodium hypochlorite, or is it something else completely? No matter which one it is, unless you know what you're doing, I would stop this practice altogether! If any of these chemicals touch the roots, those roots could easily die, (there's a chance they might not, but you're taking a risk). The shoot portion will probably not die from this treatment.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

I have added additional pictures with the orchid + its sibling (which is quite well, but not developing as I hoped) + another grass-like orchid (the three received from Thailand).

Ok...

Originally Posted by ro0ter

I have received other advices from other people and from my god-son and I have prepared weeping willow water (1 liter hot infusion and 1 liter cold maceration). Today it will be 24h since the hot-infused weeping willow water is sitting, so I will bath the affected orchid in this water.

Don't know enough, please ask someone else about this.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

Also, thank you for identifying the bugs, I thought they were mealy bugs... My biggest fear... Yet, there are also some "drosophila melanogaster"-like bugs, - that is dark bodies with wings. I don`t know what those are.. but the camera from HTC One X+ šüçks big-time (anti-advertising, they deserve it).

Those aren't Drosophila melanogaster flies. Those are probably fungus gnats.

The fact that you might fungus gnats means 1 thing...

The potting media is staying too wet, and that there is vegetative material rotting. When there's vegetative material rotting it = fungus. Fungus gnat adults feed on fungus as part of it's diet, they can also feed on living roots because symbiotic fungi can colonize plant roots. The damage that fungus gnats do is when they lay eggs in the root areas of the plant and the larvae hatch out to feed on the roots.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

I heard that a natural plant-friendly pests killer is a maceration of fine chopped garlic, fine chopped onions, fine chopped hot pepper and pepper with a drop of dish detergent. I don`t know the proportions, but will search this forum. Will this affect the orchids?

It might. Phytochemicals are a plant's natural means of chemical warfare. They produce these chemicals to naturally ward off any kind of potential bacterial, fungal, or viral infections. They also produce these chemicals to discourage predation from insects and other kinds of animals that can harm them. Some phytochemicals are also plant growth inhibitors, allowing the plant producing these chemicals to outcompete other plants.

Originally Posted by ro0ter

Yep, it`s quite a novel that I wrote, sorry everyone.

Kindest regards,
Dorin

No, it's quite fine. At least now, we know what directions this has taken...

Did you just cut one of the canes off? Were the cutters sterilized before you used them to make the cut?

Each cut with a pair of cutters must be sterilized per cut. So, for example, sterilize one pair of cutters to cut one cane; then sterilize again before cutting another cane.

Next time, I wouldn't do that unless there was something seriously wrong with it, or you actually know what you're trying to accomplish. I'm not trying to sound mean, I just am trying to figure out what you're trying to do, because I'm confused.

I also noticed you put some cinnamon on the cut surface of the cane to cauterize the open surface. I'm gonna let you in on a secret...

Be careful about applying cinnamon as well. Do not get it on the roots of your orchids.

Why?

It all comes back to those pesky things called phytochemicals.

First off...

Phyto = plant

So, the word "phytochemical" is the same as saying "plant chemical" or "plant produced chemical".

Cinnamon contains a phytochemical called cinnamaldehyde.

Does any part of the word "cinnamaldehyde" look familiar to you?

How does it compare to a word such as "formaldehyde"?

Cinnamaldehyde has antibacterial, anti-fungal, and anti-viral properties, sure, (which is why it is also used as a food preservative to some degree). But it is also a plant growth inhibitor and desiccant. So be careful with what you're doing.

When you pot the seedlings, do not bury any part of the canes in the potting media. Only the roots go inside the potting media, not any part of the canes.

---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 AM ----------

Originally Posted by ro0ter

And the weed-like orchid which is healthy as a horse.. Also what worries me is the texture on the orchid stem.. What may cause this texture (sore/pustules)? Root rotting? Bugs?

Thank you!

Those "sores"/"pustules" are scale insects. Get rid of them immediately.

Grab a cotton Q-tip swab, and dip it in 70% isopropyl alcohol. Swab the areas with scale repeatedly. Do not let the isopropyl alcohol drip onto the roots. Do not apply any isopropyl alcohol onto the roots. If the scale insects have infested the plant's roots, remove them by hand.

Keep repeating this and keep your orchids properly, then the problem will eventually go away.

---------- Post added at 09:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------

I took out what I originally said about the Weeping Willow Tree extract. I don't know enough about it, consult someone else about this.

[ro0ter]

Hello Philip,

Sorry for messing up with your name... I`ve been using my phone to write since I don`t have any internet on any PC (@work the Fortigate got bricked, @home the apartment building is being insulated and fiber optics were injured). Many mistakes occurr due to this new way of navigating and replying the forums.

Let`s get back to the orchid. I have two dendrobiums and one cymbidium (I guess the grass-like orchid it`s cymbidium).
1) First dendrobium (the ill one) is the one that worries me the most: there are only two left orchid sticks (plus 2-3 other very small "bumps" but still green on some parts, no roots). The tallest stick was sprouted by the smallest stick (from its side). The oldest stick started loosing leaves very fast, they just turned yellow, did not dried all the way and dropped (still fleshy, but yellow). The second stick had like 6 leaves but started loosing them fast as well. I then started resuscitating the orchid. It might have happened that I over-watered the orchid. The oldest stick had those speckles and then the speckles went over to the newer and taller stick. I cannot see any bug, but only the speckles. I goggled for the scale bug, but I cannot see it. The speckles are like 0.1 to 0.2mm in diameter... Will buy isopropyl alcohol today.
2) Second dendrobium (the healthy one) had 1 tall stick with no leaves for like 4-5 months and two other sticks with 3 leaves each. Then the respective tall and naked stick started to grow a keiki on its top; later on when the keiki had 3 leaves, it started growing roots. My worst action ever was to take a coca-cola cap, fill it with water + some nutrients (a drop or so) and put it so that the roots rest on it... they began to be jelly-like and now they`re dried and they only have the skin (like hay)... Later on the roots of the naked and tall stick started to rot, that is why I cut it down (I cut the rotted cane off, with no sterilized knife, but very clean, it was freshly washed). I then dipped it in cinnamon dust to kill any fungus that may rest there. It is healed now and I`ve put the stick into ground for it to grow roots. Some other sticks which I buried in the ground did not grow roots and unfortunately rotted.. I will reconsider my actions. Anyway, this keiki (the one on the top of the naked and tall stick) started growing an offspring on its side. It`s 3mm now and growing very nicely. Yet, the stick has no roots nor does the keiki. So did the other 2 shorter sticks (which are tied together): they have an offspring which is maybe 4/5mm.
3) I have some other fat-grass-like orchid (cymbidium? no idea about the species) which is very healthy, it has healthy roots going on the sides of the pot and also below, in the tray which sometimes has water (for humidity).

Besides these three orchids I have one mini phalenopsis which I got at discount (lost all flowers, sold with ~$5) and 4 other phalenopsis orchids, out of which the oldest has 3 years [ bought it in july 2010 to harvest its flowers for our wedding ]. Never changed its substrate since 2.5 years ago, but this year it asks me to do that. Anyway, for the last 1.5 years id did not have less than 20/30 flowers. Bright white, ~10cm in diameter. It gave me 2 keikis which are now potted for 6 months and one of them threw a nice flower stem which has healthy buds growing .

Now, I will address each of the topics you talked about:

Orchid species: No clue, really... I contacted the hotel we stayed at in Samui and asked about the orchid species they grow plus some instructions on how to keep them and I hope I will get an answer in a couple of days.

Poting media: I am using pine bark substrate. I don`t have access to any moss or coconut husk.

Watering: I water the orchids once a month. By watering I mean bathing the pots for 20-30 minutes in water at room temperature containing cactus fertilizer (I noticed that the cactus fertilizer has the very same exact amounts of all active and inactive ingredients as the orchid fertilizer and you can buy it waaaaaay cheaper). It is true that I over-watered the orchids before leaving for vacation (1 week) and that might upset them. Root rot never occurs by itself... I will reduce the watering to 1.5 weeks. I have watered (added ~10ml of water to the base of their stems) the orchids 1 week after moving them in a new potting media. I will not add any additional potting media.

Sun and light: I currently keep the orchids in shade, yet plenty of indirect light. The room is all painted in white and has a big 3 meters by 1.5 meters window. I`m not keeping them in bright sunlight as I was until one of them got ill.

Soap and Chlorine diluted water: Yep, dish washing detergent brand DM (yellow detergent smellink like citrus) and sodium chlorine. I know that chlorine is fungicidal and the only thing that has chlorine in my house was the toilet detergent, brand "Domestos". It contains: Sodium Hypochlorite, Sodium chloride, Cocamine Oxide, Sodium hydroxide, Sodium Laurate, Perfume, Sodium Silicate, CI 19555 (for color). The orchid was washed with this for like 30-40 seconds and then was thoroughly rinsed and washed. The leave yellowing and dropping was slowed pretty well, but it still happens.

Weeping willow: I have received advice from another Romanian member from this forum, but as private message, in Romanian Language. I performed further searches for weeping willow water and it seems that it contains both an antiseptic (which triggers the plant`s defense systems) and a root growth hormone in very large quantities. The page eɪtʃ tiː tiː ˈpiː deepgreenpermaculture [period] com/diy-instructions/home-made-plant-rooting-hormone-willow-water/ (forum not letting me post urls) is the most comprehensive source on this subject. I remembered (but not before reading more on this topic) that my grandmother was using weeping willow water for seedlings, when they were placed into the ground and also for vine cuttings. I remember she was telling me that they will not fail growing roots after watering them. She kept the cuttings over night in this weeping willow water and was regularly watering the cuttings with it for one week. I have also read a lot on the internet in the past couple of days and I would give it a try.

Those aren't Drosophila melanogaster flies: I know, I was just trying to outline that I don`t have only white creeping bugs, but also some dark bugs with wings. These adult bugs resemble the respective fly more or less. I thought that they were mealy bugs, and I kept using insecticide (which was on the shelf next to plants and orchids, but I did not managed to get any advice; I searched for the active ingredient @home and it seemed to be harmless to plants) to kill them. Well, it turns out that I should have not kill them, but only shower them. Their presence should trigger an alarm for me to change the potting media, stop watering so often and inspect the roots. Lesson learned.

Phytochemicals topic: Will consider. No need to use home-made insecticide now, no bugs present yet.

Canes cutting: I have only cut the cane of one stem from the second dendrobium (the healthy one). The naked tall stem which had the keiki on top of it started to rot from the root. I cut the rotted root and part of the stem and treated with cinnamon (as explained above). All is good now, stem rotting stopped. Other canes I buried have rotted...

Cinnamon: No cinnamon reached the roots, I know it has dehydration properties (like starch). I have further read on cinnamaldehyde. Thank you for the explanations.

Canes: What is a cane? I begin to think that it is the part of the stem that ha roots. More like the swollen part. Am I right?

Sores/Pustules: Ok, will try to get rid of them... Just that I`ve read on this on the internet and they should be 1mm in diameter at least.. these ones are like 0.1 to 0.2mm... Might as well be cell collapse due to some disease. But to be honest, it went from the old shorter stem to the newer taller stem and both started loosing their leaves, so it may be scale... darn.. will it affect other plants/orchids as well? The plants were like 10-20cm apart from each other. Will buy isopropyl alcohol today from my favorite electronics shop and will apply with an ear-bud paying attention not to touch/drop it on the roots. I will goggle on scale insects and how they look so that I am prepared to kill this "pet" (pest [singular] sounds so pets-like [plural of pet] ).

Keep repeating this and keep your orchids properly

What do you mean by "keep your orchids properly"?

Thank you kindly for all the advices!

[ro0ter]

It`s definitely scale... I`ve used the isopropyl alcohol I have bought (99.6% used as 7 parts alcohol and 3 parts tap water) and a lot of red/orange spots came off... used the zoom lens I had and took some pictures.

What concerns me most is that these pests are in the plant`s crown and I can`t get there... Sprayed some alcohol and prepared a solution with orange peel + 70% isopropyl alcohol, this evening it will be 24 hrs since it started macerating. Does orange oils help kill/banish these pests?

These scale bugs are incredibly small, at most 0.1mm in diameter (please notice the cotton fibers).. but they are many and I don`t know how to get rid of them.. I also have some insecticide to be used on vegetables (with very short halving period), will get back with its name and active ingredients, but when I mix it in the water, the water becomes milky.

Any other hint is appreciated. I have browsed through the pests & diseases area and I have not found anything like this...

Thanks!

[ro0ter]

Could this be the spider mite? It`s red, has 8 legs, walks towards the sides... damn phone, no good pictures (htc one x+ makes the poorest pictures of all, anti-advertising)

Will continue on rubbing with 70% isopropyl alcohol.

Thank you all for your advices. I will not throw these two orchids away under any circumstance. These pests only attacked these two dendrobium orchids, the other grass-like one (cymbidium or maybe Oncidium Twinkle) has no pests, and nor do my other phals.. anyway, these two are separated now.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Yes, those are red spider mites.

Spider mites are not insects. They are arachnids. Arachnids have 8 legs, a cephalothorax (cephal = "head" + o = combining particle + thorax = "chest" or "upper torso"), an abdomen, and no wings. Spider mites are related to spiders.

Isopropyl will not work on these.

You need a miticide.

Something like this:

Avid 0.15 EC Miticide / Insecticide

You also have mealy bugs on your plant.

Isopropyl will kill these rather easily.

The scale insects may not be killed quite so easily with the vegetable insecticide.

Read this article and see if it helps:

Scale Management Guidelines--UC IPM

I want to make it clear as to what kind of problem you have...

You have a problem with all 3 different kinds of pests.