2 Phal leaves wilting, curling, spotting on flower - Page 2 - Orchid Board

Lagoon · #11 08-17-2012, 12:21 PM

You tried hard and you did great -- Thanks for the photos, always helpful

I'm not seeing anything wrong with you're orchid. I believe what you're seeing , as far as the floppy growth, its just newer leaves that have not harden off yet. Its takes time for them to do this. Fanning helps alot also you could try some epsom salts at 1 teaspoon per gallon, this could take a number of times - 2 maybe 3 small shots.

Lovely orchid

Wynn Dee13 · #12 08-17-2012, 04:29 PM

I think your not watering enough. You said you used three ice cubes a week before repotting. Was the Phal in moss or bark? Three ice cubes is not very much. Melt them and you will see that it is barely anything. I know many Phals sold in grocery stores come with directions to water with ice cubes but it is not the right way in my opinion to water. It's just a marketing tool. Then you said you repotted your Phal into bark. Did you soak the bark at all before using it? New bark doesn't hold water like old bark does so you have to water more at first even if you soaked the bark. If I were you I would stop watering with ice cubes. Phals are tropical plants. They don't get ice water in nature. You should water well under the sink (as long as your water isn't softened) letting the water flow through the pot for a while and let the water drain all the way afterwards. Make sure all the medium got thoroughly wet. Then when the medium is almost dry or completely dry water well again. Many people use a wooden kabob skewer as a gauge for watering. Stick a skewer in your pot as close to the middle of the pot as possible. Always keep it there. Pull it out to check when to water. If it is dry water and if it is wet don't water. If it is damp or your not sure if it is dry enough wait one more day and check again. The middle of the pot dries last so you can't really go by the top of the medium.

As for the flower I think it could be from misting or natural aging. You said in your post the other two flowers had fallen off so the third should be close behind the others.

Good luck and let us know if you have anymore questions!

Wynn Dee13 · #13 08-17-2012, 05:07 PM

I was just looking at your pics again. I don't see anything wrong with your plant but the medium and roots I can see are dry. I really do think the wilting leaves are from not enough water.

The brown spot on the first leaf pic isn't something to worry about unless it starts to spread. It looks fine to me.

You mentioned you think the darker color on the leaf and stem is from the fertilizer. If your talking about the redish tint to the leaves it is from light. It is kind of like a sun tan for orchids. It usually means the plant is getting the maximum light levels. It won't harm the plant. Most of mine have the same thing. Fertilizing wouldn't do that. I would continue fertilizing weekly/weakly. And flush with plain water every fourth watering to flush out any extra fertilizer salts.

If you keep using distilled water you should add a little tap water back into the distilled for calcium and other minerals. If your tap water isn't bad you can use that. Many species of orchids are very sensitive to certain water supplies so you need to use good water but most Phal hybrids do fine with tap water as long as it isn't softened.

RJSquirrel · #14 08-17-2012, 10:14 PM

I think your not watering enough right on wyndeee, anytime you see a leaf on just about any plant thats drooping its bec the leaf isnt turgid and full of water. the roots in need of water to survive suck the water out of the leaves back down into the system. the leaves start losing substance, gloss and eventually turn leathery. leaves getting a full compliment of water, nutrients, light and good air flow should be parallel to the plant if not standing at attention, glossy and have a waxy texture to the surface. When you lose this "FAT" on the leaf its struggling whether it actually looks like anythings wrong or not visually. The cause of this could be the roots itself being root rotted or just not enough water period.

crazy4orchids · #15 08-18-2012, 02:12 AM

Lagoon, Wynn Dee, RJSquirrel,

Thanks for your impressions and tips. I will be trying them all out.

What a Relief to know that all the symptoms I was worrying about were not about anything serious. Getting the pictures out there was worth all the work.

Lagoon, I had read about the Epsom salts; is this similar or better than using fertilizer? I was preparing to cut off flowers and pull out the sterilized blades!

I was starting to wonder about the spots on the flower since I was starting to think about how I had recently changed the way I was misting the plant, and had intentionally begun misting her flowers. I didn't realize that it would make her more vulnerable to disease, especially if misting later in the day. Is there some controversy about this? It seems that in my searches online to learn more about orchid care, there are actually a fair number of recommendations to mist and I felt my orchid really enjoyed getting water that way too ...sending out a number of roots out of her pot. I guess she would, wouldn't she, after getting a few ice cubes of water a day?!

From the reading online about using ice, I understand what you're saying, Wynn Dee... Also, in answer to your question, the original potting was largely bark and some moss at the top. I did *not* soak the bark...I saw that advice in the past few days, obviously too late. Now I will have to water more and fertilize weakly weekly.

Although I agree with you, Wynn Dee, about not watering with ice cubes from here on out since my phal is clearly not getting enough water, ice cubes may be a marketing tool, but that marketing ploy *did* manage to keep my phal alive for 2 years. Before that, not having any experience or understanding of orchids, I easily managed to kill at least a handful. Following the ice cube trick worked for my phal...she has lived well beyond the two-three week life spans of my earlier orchids.

Wynn Dee, in watering, how do I know if the distilled and/or tap water is softened? When Mother Nature provides it and I am able to collect it, I will also try to use rain water. How deeply do you recommend putting the skewer into the middle of the pot? I did notice that the roots of my phal look shrivelled up which is unusual... How long and frequently should I water when this happens? When can I expect that it would take before the orchid becomes fully hydrated and roots appear more normal?

RJ, thanks for explaining the reasoning to this newbie. So it is obvious that the orchid is losing strength and the "fat" from its leaves, you say it is either root rot or otherwise not getting enough water (as in underwatered). How can you tell which one it is? Would you have to pull the plant out to check the roots in order to know?

Just underwatering! ...

Crazy4Orchids

Wynn Dee13 · #16 08-18-2012, 04:19 AM

I think from how you were watering and by the look of your plant your under watering. RJ was saying that the symptoms of under watering and over watering are a lot the same as far as the leaves go. When you over water it rots and kills the roots so the plant can not take up water so you end up with a dehydrated plant. Many people new to orchids see the dehydration and water more thinking that will help but it only makes things worse. Under watering is easier to fix but does show the same dehydration. It just doesn't rot the roots. It can kill the roots and they will dry up though but usually doesn't kill as many roots and doesn't kill the plant as fast. But yes to check for root rot you would need to unpot it. But I'm sure it is under watering with what you have been doing (ice cubes, new unsoaked bark, dry roots on top of media). Since you just transplanted your Phal you would of seen the root rot then if that was going on.

If your buying water that says it is distilled than it is. Some people have very hard water so they put a water softener system in their home. This softens the water by adding some sort of salt that orchids don't like. Since you don't know what I'm talking about you probably don't have softened water. Distilled water is pure water with no minerals in it so if you buy distilled water by the gallon at the store you should add in a little tap water to add some minerals.

You would do the Epsom salts and still fertilize. Epsom salts are just magnesium sulfate so you need to use a balanced fertilizer too.

You can mist your plant if you would like but try and do it early in the day so the plant isn't wet at night. Also don't let water sit in the crown of the plant otherwise you could end up with crown rot. And I wouldn't mist the flowers or buds. It could cause them to age faster and you might end up with the brown spots again. Many people don't think misting helps. If you want to raise the humidity around the plant make a humidity tray. Fill a tray with rocks and add water to the tray. Put your pot on top of the rocks so the water dosn't touch the pot.

Put the skewer all the way in the pot as deep as you can I think. I don't actually use this method but many members use it and say it works really well. I have heard that they don't kill their orchids by overwatering anymore. Then you will be able to see if the middle of the pot is wetter than the bottom or top. If the skewer is wet at all on any part of it don't water yet. You will find that you will need to water more often since you didn't soak the bark. Next time soak it for at least 24 hours so it doesn't dry out as fast. Since the top of the media will dry out faster than the rest you can mist the roots on the surface or if your plant has any aerial roots you can mist them too. I can't tell you how frequently you will need to water since our growing environments are different. It changes throughout the year. More in summer and less in winter. The skewer will tell you when to water.

The dehydrated leaves might get better but they might not. They are not that bad (I've seen way worse) so they might go back to normal. The new leaves will be normal. The roots should plump up but I don't know how long it will take. Hopefully your plant will put out more roots and leaves for you now that it is getting enough water.

I understand that the ice cube method kept your plant alive but it would of died if you kept on going and didn't ask for help. It just would of taken longer than if you were over watering.

When your flower drops I would cut your spike all the way off. You already know about sterilizing your tools so that is good. Sounds like you have been reading a lot! You can dab some cinnamon powder on the cut to seal it. Then your plant will put its energy into new roots and new leaves and build up energy for its next spike(s).

It would be good for it to grow some new roots and establish itself in its new pot.

Your plant doesn't look bad actually. A bit more watering and some food will make it a lot happier. It looks like it is getting enough light with its "sun tan". If the leaves feel warm or hot to the touch it is getting too much light but I think your doing good there!

Wynn Dee13 · #17 08-18-2012, 04:25 AM

Wow! I think that was the longest post I have ever written!

Sorry to those who have to read it!

crazy4orchids · #18 08-18-2012, 01:48 PM

Wynn Dee,

Hey, if you’re apologizing about your long post, what about me?!

(And, as a former "lurker", I learned a lot from the longer posts...) God is in the details, right? Surviving, growing, thriving, and dying…it’s all in the details, especially with orchids, I’m discovering. And I obviously am a novice at this.

Anyway, there seems to be a real “art” as well as the science to growing orchids. Finding the balance between all the changing factors (i.e., humidity, seasonal light, water++) and providing minimal basic care is key. From my experience, lighting seems very important. She began growing and setting out her first spike of large flowers without any other changes, yes even on her regimen of ice cubes---no fertilizer, no nothing--- after being relocated to a window where she loved the lighting. Before, she survived a year, somewhat dormant but alive. Also, though I’ve read that phals don’t like direct sunlight, mine set out her second set of blooms (less lavish though) this summer under those conditions and frequent misting. (The temperature and her leaves have stayed cool, however, due to the ac.)

I have given my phal a much-needed Epsom salts water drenching, draining, and am setting her out for the day by the fan. She seems to continue to recover; color looks better. Yes, understand about the overwatering-underwatering. I have heard it’s always “safer” to underwater than overwater, but neither is good.

May continue misting, but definitely will not include the flowers from now on! May try using my humidifier instead; will experiment and see what she does better with. Thanks for the tip on the skewer trick for watering. Very helpful. You’re right about if I had continued on the path of just several ice cubes’ worth of water a day; the critical factor was that new (unsoaked!) bark.

Yes, had planned on cutting down the spike as soon as this last flower drops off. Now this sounds stupid, but might as well ask since I’ve been assuming. Is the spike the entire flower stalk that comes from the base of the orchid, or is it the branch that comes off the stalk? I have been assuming that it is the entire flower stalk, and so cut the entire stalk from her first flowering down to within an inch of the base (near the stem).

One last question: did you notice that in the picture of the flower front that the “tendrils” had turned black? Do you know what would cause this?

Thanks again for the all the detailed explanations, Wynn Dee. I’ve learned a lot and I hope to discover that peak balance for my orchid to thrive. (Think I will go look for a book on orchid care…)

Well...another long post later

Crazy4Orchids

Wynn Dee13 · #19 08-18-2012, 03:50 PM

Yeah your right long posts are good since they have a lot of info in them. Describing things right takes time!

Anyway yeah orchid care does have an 'art' factor as well as science. Unfortunately learning usually means killing some too. Believe me I have killed my share!

Were your plants second set of blooms off of the same spike? Sometimes they will branch off of an old spike and bloom again but the flowers are usually not as nice and there are fewer of them. Yes cut the whole spike off about an inch away from where it is growing out of the plant. Some people like to cut above the next node to try and get the spike to branch again but I prefer to cut the spike all the way off so the plant can rest and put all it's energy into new roots and leaves. I find that the next blooming will be better if you do this.

The tendrils on the lip (I don't know the scientific name) could of turned black from just the flower aging. But it also could of been from the misting or not enough humidity. AC and heaters really dry the air which I'm sure you already know that. I need to get a humidifier real soon too.

If you already haven't seen the Phal Abuse Ends Here thread it has a lot of info on Phals especially ones bought in grocery stores and big box stores. It is under the beginner forum and should be one of the first posts since it is a sticky.

If your interested in getting another orchid you should check out the members project. We are going to do a summer project. If you want sign up and if you decide you don't want to do it later it is okay. It's a lot of fun. We all vote for a plant and then we buy the winning plant and then we all compare notes and help each other grow them. It gets people to try a new orchid they might not otherwise buy. Look under members projects. There is a sign up thread and a plant suggestion thread. You should join! You learn a lot!

crazy4orchids · #20 08-19-2012, 12:47 AM

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