Anyone heard of Dimethyl ammonium chloride with urea?

[silken]

A few members in our orchid society including myself have had problems with some of our Phals being stricken with some form of disease that is highly contagious to other Phals . It causes unsightly streaking, yellowing and pitting of the leaves. Every new leaf grows clean and healthy looking but in time it develops the same condition. We have all experienced contagious spreading to any Phal nearby. The only solutions seems to be to throw the plant out and thoroughly sanitize the area. Not sure if that is even enough to protect other Phals.

Recently we came upon an article describing what sounds like the very same problem. And the author found a cure by using Dimethyl ammonium chloride with urea. Here is the article in English even tho it appears not to be English: Orquídeas, nossas flores...: Nova doença de Phalaenopsis vindos de Taiwan

Has anyone ever used this or have any idea what strength would be safe to actually apply to the orchid? I have done some research and this chemical without the urea is used as a sanitizing chemical for greenhouses and many other applications. I ordered some but it doesn't have the urea. I would appreciate any insight anyone can share on this as to how to use it or if they tried it and if I can use the stuff without the urea and maybe just add fertilizer. It would sure be nice to have a solution to this disease that has been going around for several years.

[Ray]

The particular salt you are referring to is reasonably closely related to Physan - they are both known as "quaternary ammonium salts" - and all I can guess is that the little bit of urea enhances the foliar uptake.

[silken]

Thanks Ray. Is Physan the stuff you can apply to plants or only for clean-up? I know there is something like Physan 27 or Phyton and several different names. I can't get any of them in Canada. But I can get this Dimethyl ammonium chloride. If Physan can be applied on plants and in their media, then I guess if it's similar concentration it might be safe?? I have a sick Phal that will be my test subject so its not like I am going to dose all my plants with it.

[PaphMadMan]

I agree with Ray that the urea may help with foliar uptake. Rather than experimenting with fertilizer instead of urea I'd be inclined to go with what has been shown to work, but of course a urea based fertilizer might be just fine.

Next I have to ask if we are truly talking about dimethyl ammonium chloride (more commonly known as dimethylamine hydrochloride) which is not a quaternary ammonium compound, or perhaps something like diallyl dimethyl ammonium chloride or didecyl diimethyl ammonium chloride which are quaternary ammonium compounds. Quaternary ammonium compounds (like Physan 20) are definitely used as greenhouse disinfectants and safe for use on plants, and could safely be used at rates similar to Physan 20. But you definitely want to be sure which compound you really want before trying.

[silken]

http://pacechem.com/wp-content/uploa...enGrow_cen.pdf

It is a product called KleenGrow (the link is above) and the info does say it is quaternary, which I have no idea what that means! There is a never a mention of using it ON plants, only for cleaning the greenhouse. And unfortunately the article didn't say where to get the stuff with urea or how much to use. dumb question but where would I get urea? (the kind I would use on my orchids!).

[silken]

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_s...2-20100709.pdf

I did find this too! It looks like it is Didecyl Dimethyl ammonium chloride.

[Ray]

I think it is dangerous to assume that any chemical is directly substitutable for another for any given application. (30 years of working in the chemical industry will do that to you.)

Benzoyl chloride is used in anti-acne facial creams, benzene is toxic - even though they both have "benz" in the name.

However, in the case of "Kleengrow", it might be worth the risk - to the plants, I doubt it's much of a risk to you. But what have you got to lose? They're goners if you do nothing.

Most farm stores will carry urea.

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by silken

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_s...2-20100709.pdf

I did find this too! It looks like it is Didecyl Dimethyl ammonium chloride.

Yes, I see that that pdf shows it as being labeled for use _on_ plants.

Actually it is benzoyl peroxide that is used in some acne preparations. It is made by adding streams of benzoyl chloride, 50% hydrogen peroxide and sodium hydroxide solution to a rapidly stirred tank of water. Pure, dry benzoyl peroxide is also a sensitive explosive but in the acne preparations it is sufficiently diluted that this is not a concern. Benzoyl peroxide is also used for bleaching flour and oil drilling mud and for crosslinking unsaturated polyester resins.

You would not want to use benzoyl chloride on your face. Benzoyl chloride is a reasonably strong lachrymator. I know from personal experience because I happened to be standing underneath a benzoyl chloride measuring tank in the benzoyl peroxide production area of a chemical plant when a plant operator allowed the tank to overflow.

[silken]

Originally Posted by DavidCampen

Yes, I see that that pdf shows it as being labeled for use _on_ plants.

Actually it is benzoyl peroxide that is used in some acne preparations. It is made by adding streams of benzoyl chloride, 50% hydrogen peroxide and sodium hydroxide solution to a rapidly stirred tank of water. Pure, dry benzoyl peroxide is also a sensitive explosive but in the acne preparations it is sufficiently diluted that this is not a concern. Benzoyl peroxide is also used for bleaching flour and oil drilling mud and for crosslinking unsaturated polyester resins.

You would not want to use benzoyl chloride on your face. Benzoyl chloride is a reasonably strong lachrymator. I know from personal experience because I happened to be standing underneath a benzoyl chloride measuring tank in the benzoyl peroxide production area of a chemical plant when a plant operator allowed the tank to overflow.

Yikes, I hope you weren't injured!

Well, I applied some of this stuff to my sick Phal today and now I will see what happens. If it doesn't outright kill it, I would like to use it on my healthy ones just as a back-up to prevent any others getting whatever the sick one has. It has been isolated but until it got sick, it was with the others.