Dying Cattleya

[Brock]

Thank you both. I never had cattleyas I never really liked the fringes. Now I'm just trying to focus on learning about cattleya skinneri and one other species. I have a cattleya skinneri that got sunburned just one black spot on the leaf. That plants on a different tree I wanted to post and ask about it. Some of the back bulbs are yellow but there's babies growing off that yellow blub growing roots. Meanwhile the plant is growing normal green bulbs also. I'm really trying to learn everything about this species. I was getting ready to repot divide this plant then I noticed the leaves were getting worse. I thought it was normal stuff when I bought it. I've never seen any ooze. I'm not sure if that rules out acidovorax. I seen a cattleya at the shop I bought the fungicide from with funny leaves an oozy spot. I guess they keep Cattleyas in pure charcoal in Costa Rica. Maybe because it dries so fast. I wouldn't recommend it unless you want to water your plants everyday. All my pots are wrong I can't find sphagnum moss anywhere. Its been in the same spot progressively getting worst. I can't empathize enough it didn't turn black until I sprayed the bacterialcide. Thinking it was acidovorax and it affects baby leaves more and thats what I thought I was seeing I took drastic measures.

[Brock]

The bulb that I didn't cut because of the pods that didn't have any spots didn't turn black. I'm not sure if I spread an infection or why it didn't start dying until I used the bacterialcide. I follow the instructions I noticed black right after I sprayed. I assumed it was infected cells that died. I'll try to reach out to some people. I tried to take good pictures I know it can be difficult not seeing something in person. The roots are overgrwing the pot a lot of new roots died. I watered it 3 times a week I think I could have everyday if not every other. I haven't fertilized for a while because I have no idea whats causing it to do. I think I use 20 20 20 twice a week and 11 37 11 once a week. I have been trying to figure phosphorus. I recently started reading Robert Pavlis's books I don't think he uses a bloom booster. I thought mycorrhizal fungi eliminated the need to add phosphorus. I read people use extra phosphorus year round. I'll start fertilizing again re pot it after this season maybe hope for the best. I'm not going to remove the pods adding stress unless someone thinks I should. Its got plenty of bulbs for now. I'm still trying to learn the shades of green what everything is supposed to look like.

[Roberta]

For a start, you're frying them with fertilizer! Probably burning roots. Once weekly weakly (half of what it says on the bottle) or even less is sufficient for starters. (With rapid growth you can always add a bit more) You don't have to switch formulations. Orchids need very little fertilizer - if they aren't growing, they really don't need any. Think of fertilizer as "vitamins" not "food" - plants make their own food by photosynthesis, need small amounts of fertilizer minerals to build new tissue. (You use lots of fertilizer on tomatoes or cannabis because they grow very fast. Orchids don't.)

And what you haven't fried with fertilizer you have fried, I suspect, with chemicals, scattershot treatments without having any idea what you're actualy treating.

When you replace the ones that don't make it, take a deep breath, and recite "Less is more... less is more..."

(Just for the record, I've been growing orchids for a bunch of years both outside and in a greenhouse, don't even own a fungicide, the only "bactericide" that I possess is Physan, and I don't use it on plants, only on the greenhouse floor when it gets slimy/slippery/dangerous from algae. Grow healthy plants and you don't need a lot of "treatments")

[Roberta]

Mother Nature is actually pretty smart. Our goal should be less about "improving her" than just trying to not get in her way. Reading a lot of literature without context is not nearly as useful as observation, patience, and common-sense application of some general principles and concepts.

[greyblackfish]

Very good points Roberta. And I like your input about using physan for algae on the floor. I think fertilizer burn just might be the culprit. Last year all my orchids made stunted growths. I finally figured out it might be me using fish pond water that caused that. I also just found out kelp extract can’t be used weakly weekly. Luckily I found out early. Chemicals on orchids are not to be taken lightly.

[Brock]

Thank your for the insight.

I use less then quarter strength Ever Green 20 20 20. I mix 5 grams with a liter, then mix that liter with probably 5 other liters. I had the cycle first week 20 20 20 second week 11 27 11 same strength. I first mix the recommended ratio to water then mix in a big jug that I think if 6 liters total maybe the big jug holds 5 liters. I used this 20 20 20 ratio on a different plant and saw yellow. Then I thought is it getting enough sun. I diluted that even more and everything looks fine. I skip fertilizer once a week every month and I'm not heavy handed. I have baby orchids that have been fine.

I use clay pots because plastic supposedly doesn't break down. I heard plants know the difference between micro plastic but I've never heard or read anything negative about clay pots other then their terrible to keep plants in because they dry out and thats why house plants die because they're kept in those clay pots.

I included some more pictures. I'm not giving up on this plant the new growth one might make it. Now if you have a plant with a virus are you spossed to quarantine it until it lives out its life cycle or humanley destroy the plant?

Robert Pavlis has talked about weakly weekly kind of being a myth. I want to learn everything about this species of orchid. Once I master it I still get the name wrong Cattleya is easier to say and spell then guarianthe. I probably don't pronounce cattleya correctly. The rizosphere is something humanity is still discovering. Theres so many microbes that haven't been identified. I have people tell me I'm wasting my time with Korean natural farming methods but the just of it makes sense. I'm not sure if synthetic fertilizer kills microbes or not.

I'm not well versed in cannabis or tomatoes but I like bamboo and I'm going to start trying to grow berries. I have in the past it was easy but the ph is what matters with them. I have one orchid on some bamboo now probably not the best place to grow them but everything is fine so far. Even propagating bamboo some people think its easy some think its impossible. I want to learn why its impossible but then so easy for others.

If im learning about this plant and don't know what happened it could be a great lesson. I'm going with fed it too much too much light and spread a copper based bacterialcide that was the final straw.

[Brock]

This is one of the babies and a different plant. I understand bulbs die. I think cutting the old grow is a good practice. I wonder if its because it stimulates hormones pruning plants seems to work for me. The baby plant has been feed the same amounts of fertilizer. I was thinking about removing to two baby plants from the yellow bulb but decided to leave them. This plant has a black sun spot.

[Roberta]

Clay pots are neither "good" nor "bad" ... it depends on the plant and the conditions and what you are trying to accomplish. For instance, I use them a lot with pleurothallids, potted in sphagnum precisely because they are porous, and water evaporates... because those genera tend to hate heat, and the wet sphagnum plus porous pot provides evaporative cooling of the roots. In fact, for some, I even double the clay pot - use one the next size up as an outer pot, to get even more moisture wicking, as well as a small air space that stays humid. Also for Cattleyas they can be good, along with large bark, to provide airspace and more rapid drying (which Catts need). And the weight can be useful for keeping the top-heavy ones from toppling over.

The old pseudobulbs of orchids, if firm, are the "storage tank" for the plant. Even if leafless. Don't remove them unless you have a LOT of them or they have turned mushy (which is a sign of poor culture...)... If you remove them, you're weakening the plant. (Hence the "rule of thumb" that when dividing you should have at least 3 pseudobulbs in a division. Less, and it'll take much longer for them to establish if they survive at all) Orchids evolved pseudobulbs for a reason - for an epiphytic plant, they get their water when it rains. Then the rain stops and they dry out and those "storage tanks" keep them hydrated. (They evolved to grow on trees...how well drained is the side of a tree????) The p-bulbs contain water and stored up sugars, that keep the plant going. Mother Nature is smart! Also this informs the "not much fertilizer" concept - when it's growing in the forest, where does it get its fertilizer? From bits of detritus washing down from the canopy, maybe with a bit of bird poop occasionally. It gets teensy amounts frequently, but very teensy. Again, evolution at work - an epiphytic orchid that needs a lot of mineral nutrients wouldn't survive in nature very long, and would be "naturally selected" out of the gene pool.

For virus testing, you can get test strips from Agdia or Rega Biotechnical Not cheap, but the only way to know, visual inspection is extremely innacurate in most cases. If a plant is virused, into the dumpster. There is no cure, and it may be a vector (helped by sucking insects) that could infect other plants. Also, important reason to always sterilize your tools (or use single-use single edge razor blades). before making any cuts! The worst vector for viruses is two-legged. (Humans!)

[Brock]

Thank you Roberta glad to read you've never had to use any bacterialcides or fungalcides on your plants.

I read somewhere else that they use each on their catts annually. I read a lot of people using a higher phosphorus once a month and always using fertilizer for their skinneri. Someone said their always remove the dead old bulbs when they repot. I've read back divisions are hit or miss sometimes they will sprout new growth after being potted for three years. I know humidity is crucial during these stages. I included pictures of the skinneri with a yellow bulb babies and new growth. All on the same plant. I'm trying to learn skinneri. I heard virus tests are specific you can only test for that virus or you need a lab. Thank you again for all the help!

[Roberta]

A caution when you try to apply what "people say" ... because usually those statements don't have the rest of the story. (Like a recipe where they neglect to mention the salt, assuming that you "just know".) You have to interpolate the "rest of the conditions" and that is why it's important to know WHY you are doing what you're doing. What works for C. (Gur.) skinneri works for lots of other Catts as well. What you want to look for is the common denominator. Fred Clarke has a great talk on "How to be an 80% grower" ... If you get 80% right 80% of the time, you will have fantastic plants. So don't do ANYTHING from those bits of advice unless you can articulate WHY the person is recommending it. What are the rest of their conditions? How mature are the plants?

Go back to first principles - learn what YOUR plant needs under YOUR conditions. That can be learned only by observing your plant, applying the logic over time (we're talking months to a year or two). Then you will have the perspective to determine what, of those driblets of advice, apply and when.