Expensive orchid, white slippery powder on media/roots

[orchidhope]

Purchased expensive online orchid: Phal Al Redsun Queen 'Carribean Sunse' AM/AOS, and received May 27 and it has lanquished since then showing no changes or signs of improvement, still with pale, rather limp leaves so decided to repot in case it was packed too tight in sphagnum moss although the roots looked quite nice with live green root tips. Upon removing from pot, discovered a white powdery lightweight substance on the moss and the actual roots. Removed all of the funky-smellingn old moss, rinsed well, sprayed with hydrogen-peroxide and brushed the white gently from the roots and repotted in looser sphagnum - New Zealand of Chilean. I am caring for 4 seeding orchids and online instructions are clear to say do NOT tamp down moss and I have always been a believer of looser moss for better air exchange (I do use the slotted clear plastic orchid pots.) Wondering what the white was and if I should do more, although it actually looked better already just overnight. Any help or information would be appreciated. I believe I got it in time before any permanent damage was done.

Now for attaching a photo and NOT losing this whole post. This is my 2nd typing of it, and first draft I went to manage attachments, browsed to my photo, selected it, clicked upload, then clicked on it in the thread to view quality and when closing the attachment lost the whole post. I'll pay closer attention and in fact won't click to look at it this time as I don't want to craft and type this a 3rd time. THANKS FOR ANY INFO.

[estación seca]

The white is probably mold growing on the moss. It suggests inadequate air at the roots. Sphagnum should not be soaked when watering. That obliterates the air spaces and can suffocate roots. Instead run water over the top of the moss for only one second. It will diffuse through the moss leaving it just damp but well aerated. Water again when the top is crisp.

Phals. with that ancestry usually softer have leaves of much paler green than those with large, pink through white and more rounded flowers.

Indoors or outside? What are your temperatures if indoors?

Tightly packed sphagnum moss when watered properly is better aerated than loosely packed moss. That's why so many commercial Phal. growers use it.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I don’t know what the leaves are looking like for there to be the belief that the plant may be languishing.

As was mentioned, some Phal hybrids naturally have a paler pigmentation of green to their leaves, particularly if they consist of species such as Phalaenopsis violacea or Phal bellina, which is about 30% of this complex hybrid’s ancestry. (Phalaenopsis AL Redsun Queen)

The leaves of Phalaenopsis like Phal bellina and Phal violacea are also naturally thin.

People’s description of what is perceived as “limp” may not be describing the plant being dehydrated. Phalaenopsis naturally have leaves that grow pendulously (they hang downwards).

Try looking up what the leaves of Phal violacea and what Phal bellina look like and you’ll see why me and estacion seca said what we said.

For now, without having seen a photo of your plant, I will say something that may sound counterintuitive…

At the present moment, focus on the health of the roots and ignore the leaves.

Here’s why:

1) According to the description provided of what the leaves look like, there’s not enough information to determine whether there is actually anything wrong with them. There’s a chance there’s nothing wrong.

2) Phalaenopsis can completely regrow their leaves if their roots are intact.


I also do not advise using hydrogen peroxide on roots. Hydrogen peroxide can potentially damage the cells of the roots (particularly the actively growing root tips).

Should the white powdery discoloration be fungus, some will die off on their own without intervention if the environment doesn’t favor its growth.

Another possibility of what that white powdery stuff could be are hard water deposits.

These will be easier to determine once a photo is posted.

[orchidhope]

Estacion and Phillip,
Estacion, thank you for your opinions BUT when soaking sphagnum moss and you write "it obliterates air spaces" I agree and consider it is a necessary welcome part of forcing air exchange as the water then completely drains out taking salt deposits and TDS with it, followed by sucking in new air to fully complete the desired task -refilling immediately with fresh air.- a premise old as time itself. for healthy roots. I have 4 young seeding orchids and instructions are to NOT tamp the moss. Logistically, I lean that direction on all of them as it makes the most sense to me. I use clear plastic pots and the moss configuration is quite marked and visible and soaking does not really plump out the moss to change /dimiinish the widely scattered small air pockets that will contain the wonderful high humidity for the roots.

Estaceon and Phillip: My orchids are outside on a 3-sided open covered porch with most sun shaded by two layers of sun screens. Temperature mid to high 80's. Our growing district is beyond that I could choose when joining: 11b. It is so hot down here the moss and its ability to retain water longer than bark is a MUST. As to my languishing plant, I had contacted the seller upon getting the orchid about the pale limp leaves and as you both correctly brought up he also took the time to educate me on the hybrids stating: novelty type phalaenopsis -- particularly the fragrant ones with bellina or violacea in their genetics tend to have paler, thinner leaves. So comparing color and texture of leaves of different phal crosses doesn't tell you that much.[/I] also mentioning orchids from retail stores, are probably shot full of hormones to control an aspect they wanted improved. I get it, but other orchids in the same time frame had started new leaves and not a sign from this one so my concern led me to discovering the funky moss and glad I got it out of it. I will post a photo last. I did NOT send the seller the photo of the white powdery stuff found in the pot although I probably should to get his opinion on a plant he sold me in excess of $100 that I would surmise could not be assumed to be absolutely healthy. Although I think it will be just fine now with new moss.

Estaceon, your comment that tightly packed sphagnum moss when watered properly is better aerated than loosely packed moss. I have a very hard time coming to terms with. With more moss in the pot to pack, the increased MASS has to take up air space so I cannot conceive how that is by any means better aerated. Persons on the board have spoken about "aerated water". Don't have a clue how they got to thinking THAT, but aerated water is any water artificially impregnated with a large amount of gas (as carbon dioxide).
I just don't believe that enters into this equation. They went on to talk about pools of aerated water being disadvantageous and I don't know how anyone thinks water could pool in viable sphagnum moss. Maybe someone has scientific facts to back this up but I'm not a believer at this point. There is a lot of conflicting information out there so I let my own anecdotal evidence guide me and do my best to research when I don't have any yet on a particular situation.

Phillip, thank you for the heads up on hydrogen peroxide on orchid roots. Talk about conflicting information out there! But I confirmed your statement finding: Because hydrogen peroxide is a reactive oxygen species (ROS), it has the ability to target and break down the cells of living organisms. While hydrogen peroxide can kill microorganisms, it can also harm the cells of your orchid's roots, leading to decay I had thoroughly soaked the orchid pot, then removed funky moss, then rinsed roots well again, so as they already had taken in hydration I'm hoping they didn’t absorb the hydrogen peroxide full strength and will be ok. Now that I remember also, I did soak and flush again the next day so they should have a fighting chance of not being that affected but I'll not use it again. THANK YOU!

Phillip, the white powdery stuff, was not hard water deposits. I am very familiar with those and this stuff was more like moistened thick chalk.

In the Photos the orchid in question is circled in yellow. Next to it circled in red is an orchid I received the same day and they both had looked identical, but the red circled one's leaves were standing up now and showing strength and improvement so harbored my concern for the other expensive one.

The photo of my orchid collection location, the open area right of center with only one shade cloth is where my cattleyas, dendrobiums and oncidiums are placed. I'm adding the photo of the medium with white residue to it is with this thread as well as when I posted in another.

[estación seca]

Different people have different growing conditions. With tightly packed moss and watering for only one second the moss always remains well aerated. Soaking tightly packed moss obliterates the air spaces for a long time. Phals. do not use as much water as do many other orchid genera, so growing them in soaking wet moss is not a good idea. Taiwanese growers produce millions of Phals. annually growing in tightly packed moss at high temperatures and high humidity. If there were a better way to grow Phals. they would use it.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by orchidhope

Estacion and Phillip,
Estacion, thank you for your opinions BUT when soaking sphagnum moss and you write "it obliterates air spaces" I agree and consider it is a necessary welcome part of forcing air exchange as the water then completely drains out taking salt deposits and TDS with it, followed by sucking in new air to fully complete the desired task -refilling immediately with fresh air.- a premise old as time itself. for healthy roots. I have 4 young seeding orchids and instructions are to NOT tamp the moss. Logistically, I lean that direction on all of them as it makes the most sense to me. I use clear plastic pots and the moss configuration is quite marked and visible and soaking does not really plump out the moss to change /dimiinish the widely scattered small air pockets that will contain the wonderful high humidity for the roots.

I find that packing moss too tight causes too many issues with insufficient air exchange to the roots and it also becomes a pain when I need to remove and replace the potting media during repotting.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

Estaceon and Phillip: My orchids are outside on a 3-sided open covered porch with most sun shaded by two layers of sun screens. Temperature mid to high 80's. Our growing district is beyond that I could choose when joining: 11b. It is so hot down here the moss and its ability to retain water longer than bark is a MUST.

That’s understandable.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

As to my languishing plant, I had contacted the seller upon getting the orchid about the pale limp leaves and as you both correctly brought up he also took the time to educate me on the hybrids stating: novelty type phalaenopsis -- particularly the fragrant ones with bellina or violacea in their genetics tend to have paler, thinner leaves. So comparing color and texture of leaves of different phal crosses doesn't tell you that much.

Yup. What the seller said pretty much matches what I had said.

Although, I will say that the term “novelty Phal” describes a variety of different Phalaenopsis with different traits that it doesn’t really help to make any specific distinctions between them and “non-novelty Phalaenopsis”.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

also mentioning orchids from retail stores, are probably shot full of hormones to control an aspect they wanted improved.

Not hormones. It’s hybridization or chemical manipulation (ploidy).

Phytohormones act as growth regulators for different parts of the plant.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

I get it, but other orchids in the same time frame had started new leaves and not a sign from this one…

Different individuals, different growth rates and timing of growth. Doesn’t matter if they’re clones.

Comparing growth rates and timing of growth from completely different hybrids doesn’t mean much.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

…so my concern led me to discovering the funky moss and glad I got it out of it. I will post a photo last. I did NOT send the seller the photo of the white powdery stuff found in the pot although I probably should to get his opinion on a plant he sold me in excess of $100 that I would surmise could not be assumed to be absolutely healthy. Although I think it will be just fine now with new moss.

It is within your right to ask the seller about the plant he sold you for a premium. You are his customer after all and I think it’s fair to ask him questions.

Only time will tell how the plants will do in the long run

Originally Posted by orchidhope

Phillip, thank you for the heads up on hydrogen peroxide on orchid roots. Talk about conflicting information out there! But I confirmed your statement finding: Because hydrogen peroxide is a reactive oxygen species (ROS), it has the ability to target and break down the cells of living organisms. While hydrogen peroxide can kill microorganisms, it can also harm the cells of your orchid's roots, leading to decay

Yup! You got the science correct!

Originally Posted by orchidhope

I had thoroughly soaked the orchid pot, then removed funky moss, then rinsed roots well again, so as they already had taken in hydration I'm hoping they didn’t absorb the hydrogen peroxide full strength and will be ok. Now that I remember also, I did soak and flush again the next day so they should have a fighting chance of not being that affected but I'll not use it again. THANK YOU!

The hydrogen peroxide will react with oxygen after a few minutes of air exposure to become water. Light will also neutralize hydrogen peroxide over time as well. Most of the damage that occurs happens before the hydrogen peroxide concludes its chemical reaction. There might be some residual damage that happens as a result of it being a reactive oxygen species, but the reaction will also eventually conclude.

Most people don’t see any damage to the length of the roots because it has a layer of velamen (non-living layer of tissue) that protects the living tissue inside. Some orchids have a relatively thin layer of velamen, (such as the Phalaenopsis you own), so it can be risky to use hydrogen peroxide to disinfect orchid roots.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

Phillip, the white powdery stuff, was not hard water deposits. I am very familiar with those and this stuff was more like moistened thick chalk.

If you have a photo of the white powdery stuff, it’ll make it easier to make an educated guess as to what it could’ve been.

You could be correct in that it could’ve been some sort of fungus, but it’s difficult to say for sure what it was.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

In the Photos the orchid in question is circled in yellow. Next to it circled in red is an orchid I received the same day and they both had looked identical, but the red circled one's leaves were standing up now and showing strength and improvement so harbored my concern for the other expensive one.

The leaves on both plants look fine.

This link should demonstrate how Phalaenopsis bellina and Phal violacea orient their leaves when growing in a more natural position.

Because one of your plants has a leaf that is erect does not mean it is the rule. It is actually the exception.

Sarawak Lens: 'Wild' Phalaenopsis bellina

The leaves on your plants are not limp.

Originally Posted by orchidhope

The photo of my orchid collection location, the open area right of center with only one shade cloth is where my cattleyas, dendrobiums and oncidiums are placed.

Nice! Looks relaxing and cozy.

[orchidhope]

Estacion,

Yes, I agree, the roots in moss had been kept too wet to allow this white powdery stuff to grow and survive and exactly how I received it from the selller which I chose to remedy into looser moss which you don't agree with and it lends credence to my thoughts on your comments supporting tightly-packed moss is how the Taiwanese growers do it as well as most orchid growers and I would venture that is true but they're not giving one thought to the plants' longetivity that we orchid collectors take concern with but instead a way to not kill the plant while implementing a bottom-line profitability business strategy consisting of the most efficient and least amount of labor interaction, packing tightly first-step, one time inclusively which lends itself to their desired end result of a live plant prepared for transport and sale.

Philip, I've added the white powdery root photo image which I had in the first place and don't know what happened to it, but this site can be tricky at times!

Thank you both for your time in sharing as this is definitely a growth process.

[Roberta]

Repotting was definitely a good thing to do. If that white stuff was snow mold, likely not dangerous to the orchid but indicative of a too-wet environment. What works for Taiwanese growers with tight controls on all aspects of their growing process may not be the best in your environment. Tight moss with a sip of water may work for you and it may not. (Not my approach. I use fairly loose sphagnum in plastic baskets quite a bit, I water often. So another factor is, "how often do you water?) Some people in high-heat high-humidity areas like south Florida use lava rock to good effect. There are many ways to do this. What you need to keep in mind is that Phal roots want "humid air" rather than "wet". The "air" part is really important. You can get that wit various media, you can encourage that by watering under flowing water - let it run through the pot and then drain. Again, lots of ways to achieve humid air in the root zone, keep the goal in mind when you look for what works best under your conditions.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

The white powdery stuff is fungus. It’s mostly harmless. A change in potting media will take care of that.

Phal bellina and Phal violacea inhabit tropical seasonal swamp forests and can be found growing on trees near the waterline and above in the wild. They can oftentimes be mistaken for the tree’s foliage to those not paying close attention or to the untrained eye.

The goal, as mentioned, is humid air to the roots with the occasional wetting to simulate a rainy day.

Your “novelty Phals” need more moisture than the ones normally sold in big box stores, but they still need some air circulation to the roots and don’t like for the potting media to stay sopping wet all the time either.