Is it okay to mix Physan 20 with imidacloprid?

[Cymbaline]

I didn't mix anything together just wondering.

I haven't done it . I'm asking because I can't find any info on this. But I know many chemicals aren't safe to mix.

I bought some plants over the weekend including normal greenery and orchids. A few plants in the store showed to have scale but not the ones I bought however I know that's a possibility.
I decided that I have (Bayer) Bioadvanced 3-in-1 Insect, mite, & disease control on hand so I would treat them Just in case.
I also want to treat for any possible fungal issues . So yesterday I mixed up a batch of the Bayer and was wondering if I could add Physan 20 and make this a one shot deal. I didn't do it but I am wondering if anyone here would know.

I figured next week I would give the plants a treatment of Physan 20 .

I didn't mix anything together just wondering.

[Ray]

A little “chem lab compatibility” test is to mix your various chemicals to usage strength and put a little of each in a glass. If it doesn’t foam or precipitate, they’re probably OK to use together.

However, instead of treating “just in case”, you’d be better to keep them separated from the rest of your collection for a couple of weeks and see if they have insect issues by that point. If so, treat. Otherwise don’t.

The same is true with Physan, plus it is only a topical treatment, so a fungal infection would be unaffected. Besides, if I’m not mistaken, the Bayer product treats for systemic fungal infections anyway.

[Cymbaline]

Originally Posted by Ray

A little “chem lab compatibility” test is to mix your various chemicals to usage strength and put a little of each in a glass. If it doesn’t foam or precipitate, they’re probably OK to use together.

However, instead of treating “just in case”, you’d be better to keep them separated from the rest of your collection for a couple of weeks and see if they have insect issues by that point. If so, treat. Otherwise don’t.

The same is true with Physan, plus it is only a topical treatment, so a fungal infection would be unaffected. Besides, if I’m not mistaken, the Bayer product treats for systemic fungal infections anyway.

Thank you for that info. Also another silly question but why is treating "just in case" not recommended? I saw another person say that on this board when I was hunting for info but I already did it with a few plants .
I'll hold off next time but just wondering.

The Physan20 bottle has a prevention dose but of course .. I mean it could be a different situation / perspective or a money making move.

[Roberta]

In general, I don't want to use a treatment unless it is needed. Organisms such as insects, that have a short reproductive cycle, can - and will - evolve resistance to treatments, so that when you actually need it, it doesn't work. Think of the use of antibiotics as "preventives" in animals raised for meat... we now have whole classes of antibiotics that are no longer useful. For any of these treatments to be useful to kill insects or pathogens, they need to be "surprised"... hit with a substance that kills them. There will always be a few resistant organisms that don't die.. and reproduce, transferring that resistance to their progeny. That is also a reason, when treating a pest or disease, to rotate through several products, that have different mechanisms. And do it for multiple weeks so that you get multiple generations, since larvae, and especially eggs, are often resistant to things that kill adults. You don't want your "target" to get accustomed to the treatment. We can't prevent this phenomenon completely... evolution by natural selection is going to happen. But we can slow it down by not over-using treatments. Go with good culture first. Then treat when you have an actual problem - and you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TREATING... the treatment needs to be carefully targeted to the problem.

[Cymbaline]

Originally Posted by Roberta

In general, I don't want to use a treatment unless it is needed. Organisms such as insects, that have a short reproductive cycle, can - and will - evolve resistance to treatments, so that when you actually need it, it doesn't work. Think of the use of antibiotics as "preventives" in animals raised for meat... we now have whole classes of antibiotics that are no longer useful. For any of these treatments to be useful to kill insects or pathogens, they need to be "surprised"... hit with a substance that kills them. There will always be a few resistant organisms that don't die.. and reproduce, transferring that resistance to their progeny. That is also a reason, when treating a pest or disease, to rotate through several products, that have different mechanisms. And do it for multiple weeks so that you get multiple generations, since larvae, and especially eggs, are often resistant to things that kill adults. You don't want your "target" to get accustomed to the treatment. We can't prevent this phenomenon completely... evolution by natural selection is going to happen. But we can slow it down by not over-using treatments. Go with good culture first. Then treat when you have an actual problem - and you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TREATING... the treatment needs to be carefully targeted to the problem.

Got it. Thank you.

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by Cymbaline

Thank you for that info. Also another silly question but why is treating "just in case" not recommended?

When there is uncertainty, and that uncertainty remains ----- then the 'just in case' can actually help. There is always the possibility of resistance build-up, and some growers recommend (if chemical treatments are used) a rotation strategy or plan. That is, don't use the same substance too many times in a row or repeatedly.

And - certainly, cutting down on (or even preventing) certain unwanted fungal/bacterial issues by providing nice suitable conditions should be a primary aim.

Watching the orchids like a hawk can be a good thing too. The quicker we spot something that can be a problem ..... the more time we have to respond and do something about it.

[Ray]

In my book, the reasons for not doing preventive or “just in case” treatments are threefold:

1. I don’t want to introduce potential pollutants into the environment unless I’m certain I must.
2. I don’t want to chance developing any “super critters”.
3. With the cost of some pesticides today, I’d prefer not to waste the money.

That said, there’s a foggy, gray area between “must” and “just in case”, but which way we lean should probably be based upon the situation.

For example, I think it’s wise for folks who grow outdoors in the summer to treat their plants before bringing them in, but if I have not actually seen any pests, isn’t that “just in case”? Maybe, but if you consider the difficulty and risk of using pesticides inside the house, the situation tips the scales. For a single plant that can be taken outside and treated if the need arises, the conservative approach (with multiple meanings) of isolate and observe is probably the better choice.

[SouthPark]

One way to look at a 'just in case' situation is ----- if a particular orchid didn't make it, due to having not done something effective that could possibly have been done ----- aka lost opportunity --- then that would be a case of ----- "I could have done something ..... but didn't", which could be a real downer.

It is probably down to grower's own call. Consider the situation/circumstances.

I definitely agree with ----- if it really looks like some treatment doesn't need to be used, or shouldn't be used, then don't use it. It all depends on situation.


I agree with Ray about waryness of regular applications of 'preventative' treatment --- as in ...... regular/frequent application of something like a fungicide or insecticide etc.

My previous post was just about a once-off ...... when an orchid is developing rot, or something out of the blue. A once-off situation. Not meaning applying something regularly to a healthy orchid.

[Ray]

Yep - it's all about an individual's assessment of the risk/benefit - and that evolves with all of us.

When I first got a greenhouse, I routinely sprayed the entire structure and plants with chlorine bleach at an ounce per gallon. It kept down algae and rots of all sorts. Later I changed to Physan @ 1 teaspoon/gallon, but kept up a routine of treatment every 1-2 months. Even later I kept a small amount in my RO tank so it was applied at every watering.

I ditched that idea when I discovered Zero-tol, a hydrogen peroxide product that was stabilizer with peroxyacetic acid. When applied, the H2O2 level is a tiny fraction of even drugstore peroxide, so there is no phytotoxicity, but as it stays active until dry, instead of instantly decomposing, it is far more effective.

As my culture changed to reduced fertilizer concentration, the algae issues diminished, and when I started using probiotics the rots all but vanished (they're hard to totally eliminate when growing outdoors), so I no longer use any such disinfectants.

[Cymbaline]

Got it. Thank you guys for taking the time to explain.