Paphiopedilum (Supersuk x Raisin Pie) x sib

[gngrhill]

We are all here to learn and I value estacion seca's advice (as well as all the other help we get ) I would hope that no one would be offended by someone asking a question on a related topic.

[PaphMadMan]

Originally Posted by PaphLover

...I have a breeding question regarding this paph:
Because I love the dark paphs, I knew that the Raisin Pie is a dark paph and in looking up the Supersuk I found that is also quite dark…so my thought would be that the offspring of these would be dark as well. This lip appears quite pink…a lovely pink, mind you. I wouldn't expect a second blooming to change dramatically to the darker shades of the parents. So what's going on? Is it the "x sib" that's mixing things up or does dark x dark sometimes = lighter shade?

Teach away, experts!...

First, a note about the name on this one. It seems about half the mass market Paphs in the world for the last 10 years have had this label (if they have a label at all). The cross of Raisin Pie x Supersuk was registered in 2004, Paph Hsinying Alien. The x sib doesn't change that, so Paph Hsinying Alien it is.

There has been some speculation that not all of the plants sold under that label are really that cross, that those who produce Paphs for mass market use it as a convenient tag for any Paph that vaguely fits the type. Since it is an extremely variable cross it is hard to say, and the x sib only makes it harder. Why would that particular cross be re-made so many times over a decade of time instead of so many other possibilities, yet no one ever updated it to Hsinying Alien? It does make one wonder. For what it is worth, this one fits the most expected type for Hsinying Alien very well, and there is no harm using the name that the tag indicates is actually correct.

Now, about the breeding question. Raisin Pie is not always dark (called vinicolor in Paphs). It comes in the full range of colors for the type, from green and white through a mix of greens and red/brown, to solid red/almost black, both with and without spots and/or warts. And in a variety of shapes too. Supersuk is less variable, usually lots of spots on green petals, small dorsal sepal, and pinkish to brick red pouch, but never really dark in the vinicolor sense because that trait does not exist in its family tree. Their offspring, Hsinying Alien, can have virtually any appearance seen in the whole Paph Maudiae-type universe. The x sib generation just allows for even further return to species-like appearance or new combinations. Hsinying Alien x sib could virtually look like anything possible in the type.

To answer the more direct breeding question, in Paphs a dark x dark cross (including sib cross) can result in up to about 1/4 light flowers in the simplest genetic case, as long as both parents came from mixed dark x light ancestry. The same is true for almost any flowering plant.

[PaphLover]

Thank you, PaphMadMan! Great, and interesting, info. (as always!)

I have been schooled!

[estación seca]

The flower still looks as though it opened just yesterday. I'm going to put it, along with a few other first-flowering seedlings I have, into our club's display at our show this weekend, as filler material. Not much of my collection is blooming size, so that's all I have this year.

[No-Pro-mwa]

Don't forget to get a pic of your set up.

[u bada]

Great find! My trader joe's has good ones every once in a while, and just the other day brought home 2x paph ang thong x niveum! (one was tagged)

my thoughts on the question on genetics/ darker color is just that it's up to pure chance when it comes to a grex... some are just going to be darker and others lighter... and probably a grower is going to keep the darker ones and sell the lighter ones away to big box stores... although I've seen quite a few paph voodoo magic around at tj's... the maudiae types I've had in the past have bloomed the same color shade in my experience from year to year...

[PaphLover]

Good luck, estación seca! Let us know how you do.

[estación seca]

Thank you! I don't expect anything... I have a bunch of first-flower seedlings that are pretty but not wowzamazing. Well, the first flower did open on SVO 5537 Laelia angereri 'Peter' x milleri 'Dr Koopowitz Red' HCC/AOS this afternoon, and it is quite a glowing dark velvet red Wow color.

Plus the Tolumnia. The other T.s haven't opened yet.

I'm putting them into the club display for filler.

[Tindomul]

Originally Posted by estación seca

In addition to some really nice NOID Phals, they had 3 Paphs, a dark red-chocolate Oncidium, and even a Catt hybrid and a Miltoniopsis hybrid! I've seen plenty of Oncidiums there in the past but no slippers, Milties nor Catts.

Is my trader joes the most boring one in the nation???

Nice haul!