Lc. MOONWIND 'MT. MADONNA' (Lc. Eva Shill x Lc. Elizabeth Off).

[piping plover]

Originally Posted by terryros

You have it. Moonwind is the cross of the two parents. Undoubtedly multiple to many plants resulted. Moonwind is then registered with RHS. One particular plant was thought to be special and got a cultivar name. Cultivars are not registered with anyone. Any of us can give a cultivar name to an orchid that comes out of a cross. Awards from the AOS or another countries (or European) orchid society are logged for reference but your tag is not carrying an award. Every awarded plant must be a named cultivar.

Thank you Terryros. So, had this tag received an award would it then have been registered with RHS with the 'MT Madonna" cultivar name following the Moonwind?

---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Roberta

Right, Moonwind is the name of the grex - the cross of the two parents. Any Lc Eva Shill and Lc Elizabeth Off would carry that name (And it doesn't matter which is the pod parent and which is the pollen parent, both ways will have the same grex name, though the results might be quite different.) And there will be differences in the progeny, like siblings in a family with the same parents will look different. The Royal Horticultural Society (RHS) registration is this part of the name. The specific cultivar ('MT Madonna')is given to a specific plant, and so is attached only to other plants that are genetically identical - mericlones and divisions. Cultivars aren't registered, unless a plant is awarded. Then the cultivar name becomes part of the award record - not the name registration. The plant was not awarded, so the cultivar name isn't recorded anywhere... but this likely was a particularly good one, so it got the name (and probably was also mericloned). When one buys a seed cross, it's a "surprise package" ... it may look like its siblings or not. (Maybe the best of the bunch, or not, it's an adventure) A mericlone is a genetic copy, so when a seedling is acquired, it's pretty certain what it will look like.

Ah, got it. Thanks again Roberta. Very clear and well presented.

[Roberta]

The cultivar name on an awarded plant is part of the record of the awarding entity... American Orchid Society (AOS) does this in the US, RHS gives awards in the UK, DOG in Germany. AOC in Australia, etc... each has their awards. The cultivar name associated with the plant just says "This particular plant was awarded". The RHS registry of hybrids is separate - cultivar names are not recorded there. It is the "master list" of hybrids for much of the world, just does down to the "parents" level, not to the specific plant.

[terryros]

Except, that every cloning process still has some genetic variation, just like human identical twins, so mericlones will be mostly very close to the original, but some can be a little different.

[DirtyCoconuts]

and then there is mutation.

So much to consider

Roberta, your comments in this thread should be made a sticky. Super informative and clear. As always.

[piping plover]

Originally Posted by Roberta

The cultivar name on an awarded plant is part of the record of the awarding entity... American Orchid Society (AOS) does this in the US, RHS gives awards in the UK, DOG in Germany. AOC in Australia, etc... each has their awards. The cultivar name associated with the plant just says "This particular plant was awarded". The RHS registry of hybrids is separate - cultivar names are not recorded there. It is the "master list" of hybrids for much of the world, just does down to the "parents" level, not to the specific plant.

Hi Roberta,

In researching my cultivar I came across a Japanese (?) website which when translated mentioned that this ‘MT. MADONNA’ was awarded “the highest prize of fragrance and shiseido prize at the Western orchid exhibition sponsored by JOGA.”

I am not sure if this award is referring to minor/regional/trade show awards, but was curious if this would possibly merit a cultivar registration in another country apart from AOS. I started researching JOGA to determine if this was an equivalent to AOS in Japan or elsewhere. Not finding anything yet.

I am asking these questions so I may have as accurate information as possible on this orchid cultivar. In years past, several people asked about this orchid’s ID (while it was still NOID status) because they had interest in using for breeding. So, if I ever do sell/trade cuttings of this plant I want to be able the provide the most accurate info possible to assure confidence and integrity in breeding.

Thanks again for all the great information that you ad others have provided on this discussion

[Roberta]

It looks like the award was given to this particular cultivar. So it would keep the name. JOGA is the Japan Orchid Grower's Association, so it it a national organization on the same level as AOS or RHS. This would be a show award, though... I don't think that fragrance awards have international recognition... so I don't think that it gets any additional "initials" ... I know AOS doesn't jiudge fragrance, not sure who does besides Japan.

[piping plover]

Originally Posted by Roberta

It looks like the award was given to this particular cultivar. So it would keep the name. JOGA is the Japan Orchid Grower's Association, so it it a national organization on the same level as AOS or RHS. This would be a show award, though... I don't think that fragrance awards have international recognition... so I don't think that it gets any additional "initials" ... I know AOS doesn't jiudge fragrance, not sure who does besides Japan.

Great!

Thanks again Roberta for the quick reply and education. Much appreciated

[Roberta]

A note on awards... a show award compares the orchids within the show. The ones that get initials (such as AOS, RHS, etc) of the "formal" awards" compare the flower (or in the case of cultural awards, the plant) against the past record - all of the similar awarded orchids historically. Each of these judging organizations has a set of standards and criteria so that the comparison is, at least in theory, something that transcends what is immediately present. (The various organizations have somewhat different judging standards, but there is internal consistency).

[piping plover]

Originally Posted by Roberta

A note on awards... a show award compares the orchids within the show. The ones that get initials (such as AOS, RHS, etc) of the "formal" awards" compare the flower (or in the case of cultural awards, the plant) against the past record - all of the similar awarded orchids historically. Each of these judging organizations has a set of standards and criteria so that the comparison is, at least in theory, something that transcends what is immediately present. (The various organizations have somewhat different judging standards, but there is internal consistency).

Ah, I see the distinction. So a particular plant can get "lucky" if the others at a particular show are not as competitive at judging.

[Roberta]

Precisely. Now, a show award from one of the major Japanese shows - and their shows are very large and prestigious - is still significant. I suspect that this fragrance award had lots of prestige (and possibly even money) attached to it... the sponsor of the award was Shiseido, the big cosmetics and personal care company. If their perfumers were doing the judging, they have a vocabulary that is 'way beyond us mere mortals. Sort of like wines.

The reason that fragrance is not a general judging criterion is that it is so subjective, and also varies with time of day, temperature, light... it's a wonderful characteristic of orchids, but how do you communicate it to someone who isn't there?