Question on first bloom Catts - Orchid Board

silken · #1 04-06-2015, 07:51 PM

I have a question about first (or 2nd ) time blooming Catts. Or any other type of orchid for that matter. Last year I had a seedling produce a first bloom. I wasn't thrilled with the colouring and hoped it would improve 2nd time around. So now it is blooming again with multiple spikes and I am even less impressed with the blooms than the first time. It is a mini Catt bought directly from SVO. Being a seedling, I realize it is not a clone of an award winning plant or anything and I suppose there can be duds that just aren't that great.

So I am wondering, do I have a dud or can it still improve with time? How many blooms and how mature does it have to be before its true potential will show?

I've bloomed lots of other Catts and am usually fairly pleased. I just don't want to toss this one if I am judging it too soon. How many bloom sequences before I can assume, this is what I get from this one?

Anyone have experience where it took more than 2 blooms to see a decent bloom???

I should add, I also tested it for ORSV and CMV virus and it was negative.

WhiteRabbit · #2 04-07-2015, 12:06 AM

I have one (skinneri x lc angel love) that the first two times it bloomed, the flowers didn't open fully. After the second blooming, I was afraid it was a dud, but the next blooming (and two since) the blooms opened properly. Altho this year the color isn't as good (possibly due to not getting much light while buds were developing ?)

So, it is possible yours might still improve, I think. Hopefully, some of our very experienced Catt growers can share their wisdom!

lotis146 · #3 04-07-2015, 12:29 AM

I can't answer the question but I too have mini Catts from SVO that I got last year. I've killed half of them (perhaps you've heard me say this elsewhere) due to rotting, mostly likely the calcium issue I've been told (was it you silken?). One bloomed for me shortly after they arrived, one I got a free double of which has had sheaths ever since but no blooms from that. I wasn't in love with its bloom - really curious to see its brother - and sometimes wonder this myself (though it was a pretty flower

).

So besides my rambling, can I ask what cross you have?

daddydoall · #4 04-07-2015, 02:26 AM

Why not ask Fred Clark, he is very responsive to customers. Sounds like a healthy plant, and just not lucky to be a cross of your liking.

LovePhals · #5 04-07-2015, 08:51 AM

Great question! I had a phal with a first bloom I wasn't happy with, but when it bloomed again I was very happy with color and size (they were bigger flowers). It actually looked like it may have a virus b/c it had streaking on one flower. I have never had the problem since times after that. It has bloomed 3 but when I do get the adgia tests I am going to test it. Most recently, I have a vanda that I wasn't too happy with the flowers, and I am hoping the second... or third.. round is better. Good luck with yours, I wouldn't think it would take more than 3.

PaphMadMan · #6 04-07-2015, 09:44 AM

If the biggest concern is the color, there are a few things you can do to try to improve it, but the limitations may be mostly genetic so may not change much. Brighter light and cooler temperatures leading up to bud formation and through flower opening can make colors deeper. Some borderline nutrition issues can also lead to washed out colors, so make sure your fertilizer supplies a full range of micronutrients and maybe cut back on nitrogen.

Other than that it is mostly health and vigor of the plant that improves flower quality. Not so much a first, second or third bloom issues as size and maturity. If the plant isn't bigger and stronger with each flowering you can't expect flowers to show their best potential.

silken · #7 04-07-2015, 12:20 PM

Thanks everyone for the input. I will maybe let it bloom once more.

Lotis146, it may have been me or Leafmite who mentioned calcium. I was having an issue with some Catts, not all and I do think it has helped. This one showed no signs of a problem and has bloomed twice now since I got it in fall of 2013. It is vigorous both root wise and growth wise. The one I refer to is C. Mari's Vision x C. Beufort but it is now registered as C. Petite Song.

daddydoall, I could e-mail Fred Clarke, but I doubt he wants to hear from every person who isn't happy with the bloom result. He likely gets 100's of seedlings from every cross he makes and I do realize its a gamble. Just wonder how long a plant takes to reach full bloom potential. As far as health and vigour I suspect mine has reached that to be honest.

Paphmadman, Your mention of colour and light could make a difference but the odd thing is I likely grow it under optimum light for a mini Catt (quite close to 2 HO T5's 6400 k). Over winter they do get a cool rest in the greenhouse and a very good diurnal range, likely better than most can provide. The plant is healthy and vigorous with 4 or 5 new growths right now and each one putting out what seems odd but it is a separate bloom growth from each new growth. I know walkerianas bloom this way but according to OrchidWiz, there is no walkeriana in it. I think there might be one other species that blooms this way. The blooms open quite pale and dull and develop some better colour over the first few days. The 2 petals seem to have a white streak in them this time whereas last year they didn't.

When a couple more buds open I will add a photo. This is last year's 1st flower after developing a more pink colour. This year there are white streaks in the petals and the top sepal does not have the green this one had.

orchidsarefun · #8 04-07-2015, 12:44 PM

I see from OrchidWiz it was registered by someone in NZ - I believe its this grower.
C Petite Song 'Pink Button' AM/NZOS - Tuckers Orchid Nursery Store
Have you managed to find other bloom examples ?

Maybe you just got the worst of the worst genetic combo. I have noticed in my own breeding that there is a wide range of seedling growth and I am keeping these oddballs just to see what they bloom like. It would also ( or maybe not ) provide proof to 'cull' weaker seedlings early on.

silken · #9 04-07-2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I see from OrchidWiz it was registered by someone in NZ - I believe its this grower.
C Petite Song 'Pink Button' AM/NZOS - Tuckers Orchid Nursery Store
Have you managed to find other bloom examples ?

Maybe you just got the worst of the worst genetic combo. I have noticed in my own breeding that there is a wide range of seedling growth and I am keeping these oddballs just to see what they bloom like. It would also ( or maybe not ) provide proof to 'cull' weaker seedlings early on.

Yes, the only picture isn't from one of Fred Clarke's batch. I haven't seen any other pics. My friend bought the same plant at the same time but hers hasn't even bloomed yet. So I think mine must be happy to have bloomed twice now. I would like to see what she gets, but not sure how long I will have to wait. It also interests me that this very complex Catt is blooming from a bloom growth just like C. walkeriana or C. nobilior which it has none of in its make up. Last year it did bloom from a short spike. I haven't given it any strange chemicals and usually feed it MSU and recently have been adding Cal/Mag supplement. Same ferts as all my other orchids get. I think it is a dud to be honest. I have enough gorgeous blooms that I am not willing to take up space on this one if it can't improve.

orchidsarefun · #10 04-07-2015, 12:59 PM

I think you should e-mail Fred and ask him his opinion and mention your misgivings about the blooms. He may have had other feedback and I am sure he will give you a straight answer.
As a propagator myself - albeit it on a tiny scale - I know I would appreciate feedback because it does also go to the suitability of one or the other parent, maybe even the cross between the 2 being repeated or used in further breeding. He may even tell you that this was chemically treated in flask ! You never know until you ask.