Group order for terrestrial orchids.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I've actually never grown any Pterostylis species at all. At first I was intrigued by Pterostylis, then I lost interest because of how hard they were to come across. Then when I saw Pterostylis curta, yeah, it was like you said, they're not very showy...

I may consider getting one later, just because I know a source for one here in the US, and it doesn't hurt to add an easy to grow orchid every-now-and-then.

[Bloomin_Aussie]

Originally Posted by rosemadder

If a person were able to keep orchids of this type, would there be any point in trying to pollinate them and produce more seeds? Even if we can't propagate them ourselves successfully, is there a way to contribute to the maintenance/availability of these species?


...And I'm curious, would it be possible or of any help to the grown plants to get a bucket of Australian dirt that had the proper native fungi in it?

Weighing in a little late here but... yes, absolutely.

I have flasked seed of a number of Thelymitra and had good success. This was using Western Labs media but I don't think they require anything special. They deflask really well too.

I wouldn't bother sourcing Australian soil. .. it is unlikely the appropriate fungi will be present but also they do very well without any presence of a symbiont (for most at least). I'm not sure if the hybrids with benthamiana and variegata are any different as those species are supposedly more reliant on a fungal association.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Bloomin_Aussie

I wouldn't bother sourcing Australian soil. .. it is unlikely the appropriate fungi will be present but also they do very well without any presence of a symbiont (for most at least).

Dan,
I'm kind of doubtful about the importance of having the right fungi too. I deflask Thelymitra and Pterostylis into a mix of perlite and pine based potting mix and they don't seem to get set back much. Actually, I don't know whether the easy species aren't as reliant on fungi or whether they'll associate with a wider range of common fungi than we give them credit for. I think it may be a bit of both.

[Bloomin_Aussie]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Dan,
I'm kind of doubtful about the importance of having the right fungi too. I deflask Thelymitra and Pterostylis into a mix of perlite and pine based potting mix and they don't seem to get set back much. Actually, I don't know whether the easy species aren't as reliant on fungi or whether they'll associate with a wider range of common fungi than we give them credit for. I think it may be a bit of both.

Either way it doesn't seem to really matter. I've deflasked into both chopped sphagnum/perlite and my standard coco peat/perlite without any major problems, although in small seedling pots the sphag tends to dry out quickly so you need to keep an eye on it. Both of those mixes are fairly low in organic content so don't tend to support fungi. After deflask, usually the existing leaves die back over the course of a week or so but then new ones come in their place very soon after. Best to deflask in Autumn or early Spring I think.

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

I've actually never grown any Pterostylis species at all. At first I was intrigued by Pterostylis, then I lost interest because of how hard they were to come across. Then when I saw Pterostylis curta, yeah, it was like you said, they're not very showy...

I may consider getting one later, just because I know a source for one here in the US, and it doesn't hurt to add an easy to grow orchid every-now-and-then.

I'm going to disagree with you on that one... you get 50 flowering plants of Pt. curta in a 6" pot, then tell me it isn't showy!

I think it is fair to say many terrestrials are rather dull if they are solitary. Who want's only one flower in a pot anyway?

[stonedragonfarms]

Reading through the thread, I wonder about growing any of these that have corms/tubers in a similar manner as for Ponerorchis, ie in straight calcined clay, following the rule of generous water when in growth and no water when not. I'm growing P. graminifolia this way; I planted tiny "wooly" tubers of them last spring, they grew all summer, then the foliage died back about mid-October. Following the cultural advice that I could find, I did not water them at all after the leaves fell off, just kept them in a bright corner of my cold house. Mid-March of this year, two of the three pots started to push out new growth, both are in spike now; the third is just waking up. I water all of them with a 70/30 mix of distilled water (0ppm solids) & spring water (20-30ppm solids); they get fertilized 2-3 times a week when they are growing with 5-1-1 fish/kelp fertilizer. Sorry to ramble, just my 2c,
Adam

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by stonedragonfarms

Reading through the thread, I wonder about growing any of these that have corms/tubers in a similar manner as for Ponerorchis, ie in straight calcined clay, following the rule of generous water when in growth and no water when not. I'm growing P. graminifolia this way; I planted tiny "wooly" tubers of them last spring, they grew all summer, then the foliage died back about mid-October. Following the cultural advice that I could find, I did not water them at all after the leaves fell off, just kept them in a bright corner of my cold house. Mid-March of this year, two of the three pots started to push out new growth, both are in spike now; the third is just waking up. I water all of them with a 70/30 mix of distilled water (0ppm solids) & spring water (20-30ppm solids); they get fertilized 2-3 times a week when they are growing with 5-1-1 fish/kelp fertilizer. Sorry to ramble, just my 2c,
Adam

This is only true for those that grow predominantly in areas with calcareous type of rubble, and the rock weathering creates a soil that is high in Ca and Mg, such as Anacamptis, Cephalanthera, and Ophrys.

Thelymitra and Diuris come from places with granitic type rocks and decomposed granite as a result of rock weathering. The Ca and Mg levels may not be all that high. Sometimes the clay minerals are dominated by Al or K.

Disas don't grow in calcareous type soils either. I'm not sure that shale would be considered calcareous, but that's as close to "calcareous" as Disas get to growing in those kinds of soils. The soils may have Ca and Mg as part of the clay mineral composition, but they are not calcareous per se. Again, the clay minerals may be dominated by Al or K in some cases.

When I'm referring to clay minerals, with the case of Disa, Diuris, and Thelymitra, if I'm not mistaken, it is mostly referring to silicates.

I haven't mastered the principles of clay minerals. I think I'd have to go to a class and get information on this. It's not something that can easily be understood by reading a book.

[rosemadder]

Looking over the price list on these, the plants are around 4 years old or so... I keep wondering, just what is it that the grower is doing, that everyone else is having such a hard time with?? What's causing such high mortality rates?

Are these plants shipped as bare tubers and there's a ton of trial and error happening because nobody's sure what substrate to put them in? Or the watering is all wrong?

Are they coming from a nursery where they're grown in Germany proper, or actually from Australia and needing to make some kind of weird seasonal shift? Or... what?

Or are they really just that sensitive and shipping or repotting is enough to screw them over?

Just wondering what it is about these that makes them such a big challenge. I guess if we knew, we'd be able to fix it and they wouldn't be, or something...

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by rosemadder

Looking over the price list on these, the plants are around 4 years old or so... I keep wondering, just what is it that the grower is doing, that everyone else is having such a hard time with??

He probably had to do the trial and error thing too before he got what worked for him. From his little ditties on his website, it sounds like it.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

What's causing such high mortality rates?

1. Sometimes it is a substrate problem. When some people hear that these orchids are terrestrial, they might automatically revert to old gardening habits and stick them in regular old organic potting soil.

Like I've said, particularly with Thelymitras...

They grow mostly in inorganic soil, particularly in gravelly areas. Those pieces of rubble are granitic rocks. The sand you see in some of these photos is decomposed granite.

However...

Those areas do have some organic material. That organic material in the wild, would consist of:

a) The roots of other small plants. Mostly from grasses and reeds.

b) Some sort of ground cover. It looks like some sort of bark or something, (I'm not sure what it is exactly), and some dried grassy or reedy materials.

With Ophrys -

a) They grow around limestone rubble.

b) The sand is most likely some sort of calcareous sand.

c) They grow around lots of reeds and grasses, so they may have fibrous plant material keeping the soil loose and aerated. There is also a little bit of ground cover as well from the dead grasses or reeds.

2. Their tuberoids are "soft", and they kinda have the same problems you'd have if you were to not know how to grow a potato or a Dahlia, (in fact, a Thely's and an Ophry's tuberoid would be closer to that of a Dahlia's tuber than a potato tuber).

So, I'm going to illustrate using a Dahlia tuber as an example...

a) A Dahlia's tubers are formed from root stock. Same thing with a Thelymitra's tuberoid - they are known as "root tuberoids".

b) You overwater a Dahlia, it starts rotting quickly. You underwater a Dahlia or give it too much air, it shrivels. Same goes for a Thely's tuberoid or an Ophrys tuberoid.

c) (The following is what makes them super difficult, and have high mortality rates.) For each tuberoid, there is only 1 eye. If any part of the tuberoid rots out, the whole thing is unsalvageable. So if you have a plant where each tuberoid will only vegetatively reproduce one to two tuberoids at a time, the pressure is on to keep the main tuberoid alive.

d) When these orchids are sold, they do not usually sell us orchids with multiple tuberoids.

3. Proper watering/substrate aeration can be an issue. It takes some trial and error to understand how much to water a Thely, a Disa, or an Ophrys. Same thing with something like a Phalaenopsis. The difference between figuring out the watering schedule to a Phal compared to a Thely is that there is no tuberoid to worry about rotting out with a Phal!

Plus potting mixes tend to compact over time, which means less air can get to the roots.

4. It could also be a mineral problem - (this one I'm not quite so certain about). People keep saying that these inorganic "sandy soils" are "nutrient poor". So they starve their orchid.

Well what they mean by "nutrient poor" is that these nutrients are not quite so bioavailable. Those nutrients are there, but they are in inorganic form. In the wild, fungus makes those inorganic nutrients far more bioavailable. In cultivation, "we are the fungus" - we can find ways to make those nutrients bioavailable to the plant without the use of an actual fungus.

Note: Fungus can break down inorganic materials very easily.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

Are these plants shipped as bare tubers?

I've only made one order from Dr. Beyrle, and many of them were just coming out of dormancy at the time, while some were entering dormancy.

If you are talking about Ophrys and Thelymitras, then yes, if you bought them now, they would be dormant, but they would be coming out of dormancy in about September or October in the northern hemisphere.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

There's a ton of trial and error happening because nobody's sure what substrate to put them in?

There is a smaller margin of trial and error than you may think...

As I stated earlier, I know for a fact that many Thelymitras grow in areas that are predominated by granitic rubble, and where there's granitic rubble of varying sizes, there is also a little bit of decomposed granite. There happens to also be quite a bit of fibrous organic material mixed in with the decomposed granite and granite rubble as well as a thin layer of ground cover in that kind of environment, because Thelymitras are almost exclusively found in fields with lots of grasses and reeds and I almost always see some sort of ground cover that resembles cypress wood chips.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

Or the watering is all wrong?

In some cases it could be.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

Are they coming from a nursery where they're grown in Germany proper, or actually from Australia and needing to make some kind of weird seasonal shift?

I can verify that these plants are coming directly from Germany.

I still have the phytosanitary certificate made in Germany for the previous order. I can scan it into the computer and upload a photo of it onto the OB if you like.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

Or are they really just that sensitive and shipping or repotting is enough to screw them over?

No, they're really not that sensitive. Especially if you're talking about Stenoglottis (South African natives).

I'm currently having lots of fun with my Stenoglottis woodii. Grows like a weed. Each rosette is ginormous - and I was the one responsible for this kind of growth, not the seller I got it from, because the plant had sprouted new growth under my care after it had died back completely! I can post a photo of it up on Flickr, and I'll post a link to it if you like.

Thelymitras are not super sensitive. If they were, they would not even attempt to grow a leaf! If they were sensitive, they'd be dead within a few weeks, and not last months.

Diuris with potato shaped tuberoids are even stronger than Thelymitra!

In terms of my growing experience, I don't think I failed hard with Thelys or Diuris, at all. I only failed real hard with Caladenia latifolia, Disa chrysostachya, and Leptoceras menziesii. But that's because of inexperience! I've only grown Diuris once, and I've taken it to about 1 yr!!! I've only grown Thelymitras twice and both times I've grown them for about 6 months each time! It looks like I could even have a new success in Disa sagittalis, and it is only the second time I've grown these, (we'll have to see if it comes out of dormancy).

People in the US are growing Pterostlyis curta and other Pterostylis species.

So, no, not all of these are super sensitive.

Originally Posted by rosemadder

Just wondering what it is about these that makes them such a big challenge. I guess if we knew, we'd be able to fix it and they wouldn't be, or something...

It comes down to experience, good research, and knowledge. Even then, mistakes can still happen.

Sometimes, the info isn't as readily available. You gotta look for it.

I could easily say the same thing about Phals. People used to, (and in some cases, still to this day), grow Phals upright, not knowing that they actually do not grow upright, but rather off to the side with the leaves pointing down towards the ground. A lot of people still screw up with Phals quite often, and I'm in that club. Think about how fast a big box store NOID Phal somebody didn't know how to take care of went downhill, compared to my experience of mucking around with Diuris and Thelymitras and growing them to the 1 year mark or the 6 month mark respectively, with relatively very little experience in only a few tries. This just proves that they're not that sensitive.

---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

Ok...

Here's the link to my Stenoglottis woodii.

Stenoglottis woodii | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

My hand's there so you can get an idea of how large each rosette really is.

[Bloomin_Aussie]

Well that was a post and a half Philip!

The first year I grew Thelymitra I managed to kill just about all of them. They had been potted in 5" plastic pots using a media that was a combination of premium potting mix, perlite, coarse sand, peat and charcoal. These I had left under shade cloth but in the weather for the season, only giving them a weekly watering. All was well until at the start of Spring we had 2 weeks of non-stop rain. The mix ended up saturated and pretty much everything rotted away. Strangely, the Diuris orientis I had in the same mix and situation thrived (and to be honest I haven't had any do that well since).

The next year I changed things... added a roof, and put more sand in the mix to help drainage. That season my Thels did better. Some still rotted for no apparent reason and others were OK. Still nothing I would call success. Now the Diuris which had done well the previous year suffered some losses. The tubers were thin and much shorter than the year prior. This was frustrating to say the least.

Anyway, in conversation to another grower it was suggested I try peat and perlite for some Thelymitra he had given me. I said I didn't have any peat (sphagnum peat) but I did have coco peat so would give that a go. I kept it a fairly light mix... about 70% perlite and potted up my tubers in late summer. That season I had no losses. Actually I had multiples of some species. One even tripled in numbers.

In subsequent years I have only used coco peat and perlite for Thelymitra and continue to have good results. Why? I'm not sure exactly but I suspect there are several factors including...

Coco peat is naturally home to Thrichoderma sp. which prevent growth of other pathogenic fungi.

The large amount of perlite ensures that the mix does not saturate and stay wet. Even when given a good wetting through, the mix will drain of excess water leaving only the coco peat holding water.

I'm now moving other terrestrials into this mix too. Some work well, others not so much. It is all trial and error.

But to give you an idea of the variability of conditions these plants grow in... In the wild I have found Thelymitra growing in everything from decomposed sandstone soil, to a thin layer of moss covering a rock. Some situations seem very dry, others very wet. I have encountered Thelymitra sp. growing in dried out clay soil. I have seen Thelymitra kangaloonica growing in boggy ground in highland swamps. I have also seen Thelymitra X macmillanii growing in a creek - yes under water!

[lambelkip]

Dan, I'm growing Ophrys in 70% perlite/30% coco peat. It's nice to know the mix works for Thelymitra too.